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Thread: To Chamber or Not to Chamber?

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClearSightTactical View Post
    This my friends is the answer to this on-going debate:

    It is a personal preference: wow, I just solved this problem :-D

    I can think of many reasons that chambered is better than not, and you can think of many reasons why unchambered is better than chambered.

    We will have to use our training, our experiences, and our comfort level to guide us to the right decision for us.
    I think this is the first time I've ever read anything you've written and disagreed CST.

    I don't think it's a question of personal preference, how you like your steak cooked would fall into that subject.

    It's a question of superior tactics. Given the time to react, as in your not the victim in the attack or you see it coming, having to rack is fine. But when you have mere seconds or less to react, most gunfights are over in 3 seconds or less, the extra time to rack or the potential for a misfeed, are too great to ignore.

    I suggest that any of you try to draw, rack and fire with a chronograph and then do the same without having to rack and compare the difference. Anyone who thinks that they are just as quick are foolish.

    A lot of semi-auto firearms have internal safeties that bring the chances of a misfire into the astronomical range. My Taurus PT-92 disengages the firing pin when the hammer has come to rest after cycling the pin, only re-engaging immediately once the hammer leaves the seat. I even tested the viability of this automatic safety by setting up a bench vise to hold the firearm and using a nail set and a hammer to drive on the back of the hammer in it's at rest position. Of course the gun didn't fire, add to that a good retention holster that completely covers the trigger and you are NOT going to have a misfire.

    All that being said, carry however you like. But I intend to increase my chances of living so one in the chamber for me.

  2.   
  3. Quote Originally Posted by Unfettered Might View Post
    Correct, if given a split second chance by the BG's inattention, it takes too long to pull, rack and fire vs just pull and fire.



    Correct.



    Incorrect

    Gold Star Open Carry - Generally preempted open carry permitted on foot and in vehicles without a license; localities generally preempted.
    Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, Kentucky, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, South Dakota, Vermont, Virginia, Wyoming

    Open Carry Friendly - Open carry permitted by state law without license, but either lacks preemption or does not allow unlicensed open carry inside a vehicle
    Alabama, Colorado, Delaware, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin

    Licensed Open Carry - Generally preempted open carry permitted on foot and in vehicles with a license; localities generally preempted.
    Connecticut, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Dakota, Tennessee, Utah

    Non Permissive - Open carry highly restricted or banned
    Arkansas, Florida, Illinois, New York, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas

    Rual Open Carry - Open Carry Generally Allowed in Non-Incorporated Areas
    California

    Looks like only 8 states that actually forbid OC, 42 others that allow either with a license or no license at all. 2 states are unrestricted on CC.
    12 states that are unrestricted on OC

    5 states that forbid OC are shall issue states for CC, the other 3 are may issue and as far as I'm concerned may issue is too easy to not issue.

    So where did you get your data that the majority of gun carry laws are pro CC? My data seems to suggest otherwise.

    Our wires got cross in text, open carry in many of the states you mention are not OPEN CARRY... LOADED... ON YOUR HIP... HOLSTER. Most purchase permits allow open carry unloaded weapons to and from the range/hunting or for transportation, that has nothing to do with walking around the streets with a holstered, loaded weapon on your side, again i don't every states gun laws, but i don't think there's many that allow open carry holstered loaded weapons.

    ***Were getting off course here... lets say for the sake of discussion will use a conceal carry weapon scenario. Back to scenario.

    Do you really believe you're going to draw your weapon with a knife pointed at your gut, even if you get that split second! ... your telling me that's all you need is a split to reach under your clothing/shirt/jacket pull your weapon, put it on target, and squeeze the trigger ... Then i'm guessing you don't believe in the 21 foot rule.

    You feel if you mortally wounded/to-weak, you won't have the strength to rack the slide, but.. you'll have the strength to reach under you jacket, pull your loaded weapon out of your holster, bring it up on your target, and squeeze the trigger.

    I just want to make sure i understand because wording can get mixed up, when reading it. Am i understanding your statement correctly.

  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsite View Post
    Our wires got cross in text, open carry in many of the states you mention are not OPEN CARRY... LOADED... ON YOUR HIP... HOLSTER. Most purchase permits allow open carry unloaded weapons to and from the range/hunting or for transportation, that has nothing to do with walking around the streets with a holstered, loaded weapon on your side, again i don't every states gun laws, but i don't think there's many that allow open carry holstered loaded weapons.
    Actually they are. I'm sure there are some local municipalities that prohibit if there are no preemption laws in effect and some that don't. It would take extensive research to actually lay it all out per county and city. Even California allows OC outside rural areas, but it does have to be unloaded, hence why it wasn't included in the other lists. Go here and you will see.

    OpenCarry.org - A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost!

    Quote Originally Posted by gunsite View Post
    ***Were getting off course here... lets say for the sake of discussion will use a conceal carry weapon scenario. Back to scenario.
    True it's a tangent, but I for one just hate misinformation and with you describing all firearm carry as CC, you take away from the true facts for those that are newbies. Just please educate yourself. I for one cannot argue this considering CC because I see it as an automatic tactical disadvantage. Having a firearm concealed AND unchambered is ridiculous IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by gunsite View Post
    Do you really believe you're going to draw your weapon with a knife pointed at your gut, even if you get that split second! ... your telling me that's all you need is a split to reach under your clothing/shirt/jacket pull your weapon, put it on target, and squeeze the trigger ... Then i'm guessing you don't believe in the 21 foot rule.
    Yes I am, I can draw and fire 2 well placed shots in roughly one second, I train for it and have been timed. I personally don't need to reach under my coat because I open carry, CC is too much of an encumbrance IMO. Of course situational awareness is paramount and I shouldn't be letting the BG get that close to begin with, but things aren't always textbook. You need a round loaded.

    Quote Originally Posted by gunsite View Post
    You feel if you mortally wounded/to-weak, you won't have the strength to rack the slide, but.. you'll have the strength to reach under you jacket, pull your loaded weapon out of your holster, bring it up on your target, and squeeze the trigger.
    Again, I OC so yes. It takes considerably more energy to rack a slide than to pull a trigger.

    Quote Originally Posted by gunsite View Post
    I just want to make sure i understand because wording can get mixed up, when reading it. Am i understanding your statement correctly.
    You should be now

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Unfettered Might View Post
    Actually they are. I'm sure there are some local municipalities that prohibit if there are no preemption laws in effect and some that don't. It would take extensive research to actually lay it all out per county and city. Even California allows OC outside rural areas, but it does have to be unloaded, hence why it wasn't included in the other lists. Go here and you will see.

    OpenCarry.org - A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost!



    True it's a tangent, but I for one just hate misinformation and with you describing all firearm carry as CC, you take away from the true facts for those that are newbies. Just please educate yourself. I for one cannot argue this considering CC because I see it as an automatic tactical disadvantage. Having a firearm concealed AND unchambered is ridiculous IMO.



    Yes I am, I can draw and fire 2 well placed shots in roughly one second, I train for it and have been timed. I personally don't need to reach under my coat because I open carry, CC is too much of an encumbrance IMO. Of course situational awareness is paramount and I shouldn't be letting the BG get that close to begin with, but things aren't always textbook. You need a round loaded.



    Again, I OC so yes. It takes considerably more energy to rack a slide than to pull a trigger.



    You should be now
    respectfully... i think you watch to much TV... Good Luck in your Gun Endeavor

  6. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsite View Post
    respectfully... i think you watch to much TV... Good Luck in your Gun Endeavor
    So I guess by adding "respectfully" to that statement, you somehow lessen it's intention as an insult?

    Actually, I don't watch TV. I have more intellectual and artistic endeavors that occupy what time I have remaining after my girl's get their time.

    I've actually researched bullet and wound ballistics, including reading FBI research documents pertaining to the subject. I train monthly, firing under various conditions at one or multiple targets. I am active in campaigning state sovereignty rights and actively promote 2A to my friends, my family and complete strangers. I've researched my state laws pertaining to carrying firearms, concealed or not. Educated myself to not only law but case law involving physical force, deadly physical force and castle doctrine. Studied Justifiable Homicide and Lessor of Two Evils defenses. Even learned somewhat obscured facts in my state, such as being able to carry a firearm into a bar as long as it's unloaded or that I can OC into a courthouse if other state offices exist within the same structure, just not into a courtroom.

    No sir, I don't watch too much TV, I take this whole business quite seriously.

    Your problem is I tried to correct you and you resorted to insults, well done.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    I think it is safe to say that the population differs across the board... But it seems to mostly come down to comfort level. Comfort and confidence is something that everyone needs to work on and develop. I personally carry a 1911 "cocked and locked". If your sidearm is needed, I want to take full advantage of each precious second you will have in a confrontation. You will not be the one initiating the attack, so swift reaction is of the utmost importance.

    Someone speculated the chance of you getting shot in the arm and not being able to rack the slide... I am more concerned about getting mortally wounded without enough time to react. At that point you have failed at protecting yourself and others which is the whole reason for concealed carry.

    Carrying concealed safely comes down to a combination of training, equipment, situational awareness, and readiness. All come with time and experience. Bottomline is any firearm is only as safe as the handler. So I say to everyone, keep training and education yourselves. The time may come when it will pay you back "ten fold".
    Good Mind Set...

    A person's lack of training inhabits their ability to understand tactics and methods, the MERE second a decision people talk about is correct, sometimes a weapon may be shown, or shots fired in your immediate area (10-20 Feet), but your reaction to draw your weapon will get you killed!!! Most police officer get seriously wounded/killed because their reaction is to reach for their weapon and draw, YOUR REACTION BETTER BE ... MOVING/COVER... that will save your life, being a stationary target... reaching, drawing your weapon is not tactually sound, PLUS... MOST SHOOTERS ARE NOT THAT GOOD UNDER PRESSURE.

    If your Reasoning for a carrying a chambered weapon is... " split second decision to draw a concealed weapon " its a FALSE POSITIVE. Private citizens with SOME TRAINING are just not good enough GRIP/FIND their concealed weapon, draw it, put it on target, and hit their target... UNDER PRESSURE... Pressure changes everything, I've seen trained LE, trip, fumble, drop their weapon, and surfer wounds (discharges) while training in combat/tactical courses.

    I privately train people now days, i focus on tactical reaction to trauma situations, because that's what will save your life, standing fast reaching for your weapon in a split second does not increase the survival rate as a conceal carry citizen. People who carry conceal just don't train enough CONSTANTLY to be that good under pressure, but teaching people to react, by MOVING, creating DISTANCE, and COVER greatly increases their survival rate, and that's what counts at the end of the day.

    Trauma, people forget that part, ITS NOT T.V Trauma, Shock, Body Burn/PAIN happens when you get shot .... I had guy next to me take a shot (32 cal) to the front upper chest above the pectoral muscle which ended coming out and shattering his Jaw, i believe he became the target because i was moving and drawing, he stood fast and drew his weapon, and the aggressor choose to shoot at the easier target.

    Anyone remember the OSWALD/ruby shot, the photo that was captured when Ruby shot Oswald, or the Reagan assassination attempt when Delahanty, McCarthy, Brady, and Reagan were hit, Its traumatic, it freezes/stuns you, and everyone around you. Most people don't die from a gun shot (excluding hitting the heart)... they die from bleeding out, Reagan and the others did survive.

    Shooting of Ronald Reagan | National Geographic Channel

    If i had one arm incapacitated switching magazines and racking with one arm is no big deal. The lack of tactical training prevents knowledge of understanding why and when you do AND DON'T do certain things. I don't advocate carrying a non-chamber weapon, and i keep saying it so everyone understands that's not the point i'm driving across with my post. If someone ask me whether they should carry a weapon chambered or not, i would never tell them their better off carrying a non-chambered weapon.

    I carry a NON-CHAMBER WEAPON, and my training doesn't make it a handicap, i will draw my weapon up to my arm pit.. rack and fire from the armpit position while moving... faster, and with more hits than most street target shooters , my primary reaction to a TRAUMA/shots fired situation is MOVING, DISTANCE, AND COVER. I'm never compromised by an action because i always have a REACTION.

    The more your trained... the more you can do, the more you can innovate with confidence. There's no way to train for the unknown...

    The best you could do is default to your training.

  8. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by gunsite View Post
    Everyone makes adjustments and re-adjustment, your concerns should be training to learn, Identifying a target, assessing situations, where you carry your weapon (placement: back hip/shoulder/ankle/frontal) and the type of holster (retention/IWB/back).

    I've seen pictures in photo threads displaying " HOW PEOPLE CARRY ", Tactically speaking, a NIGHTMARE, conceal carry speaking, GREAT. Carrying a chambered/loaded weapon and thinking your ready, is a false positive. Carrying a loaded weapon is one thing, knowing where, when, and how to use it, is another. At least learn point shooting, drawing your loaded weapon is one thing, hitting your target is vital.

    Do you thing I'm totally inexperienced with weapons! Or is it that I'm female & you think I'm not smart enough to know if I should or shouldn't fire a weapon! I will tell you I've been in situations where I've had to think quickly act on my feet,make choices! I'm far from stupid! I've been in charge of my own life & needs since I was 14! That includes major surgeries & not just a bandaid ! I've seen & witnessed more than you'll ever know or that I would ever share on this board!
    The fact that I carry with one in the camber is my choice! Yes I can rack my weapon,load my weapons,& I can hit the target dead center. At 30 ft with out resting my hand on anything I can load & rack,then empty 2 mags in the bull eyes with the following; 27-glock,Busa-45,Pt-709 Taurus,Pt-738 380 Taurus! Then we have also a 38-air weight S/W ho yes one more Ruger Super Red Hawk -454!! These I can also do the same with!
    So now just for fun because I know I can I'm working on pushing the target furthet back.
    If theres a perp out to get you hes gonna be a lot closer than 30 ft! General rule here in TN is the 21ft rule!If you feel your lifes threatened! And yes I can hit the target at the closer range too in the center!
    Always in the back of my mind NO ONE is gonna take me down with out a fight! Been there growing up!No way has an Adult will that happen!
    I can take advice & critisism & have from differant people! Wether you want to believe that or not! I'm Ok with it! I want help & advice! But you have never seen me shoot & are assuming I don't know anything! Most likely because Im a newbie on this broad & with my CCW Permit! I'm far from a newbie with weapons! One more thing Hubby & I for years use to shoot Rifles & Shot Guns! I did good with them too!
    Next time before you make comments to someone why don't you ask what they can do & what they know!

  9. Quote Originally Posted by gunsite View Post
    Good Mind Set...

    A person's lack of training inhabits their ability to understand tactics and methods, the MERE second a decision people talk about is correct, sometimes a weapon may be shown, or shots fired in your immediate area (10-20 Feet), but your reaction to draw your weapon will get you killed!!! Most police officer get seriously wounded/killed because their reaction is to reach for their weapon and draw, YOUR REACTION BETTER BE ... MOVING/COVER... that will save your life, being a stationary target... reaching, drawing your weapon is not tactually sound, PLUS... MOST SHOOTERS ARE NOT THAT GOOD UNDER PRESSURE.

    If your Reasoning for a carrying a chambered weapon is... " split second decision to draw a concealed weapon " its a FALSE POSITIVE. Private citizens with SOME TRAINING are just not good enough GRIP/FIND their concealed weapon, draw it, put it on target, and hit their target... UNDER PRESSURE... Pressure changes everything, I've seen trained LE, trip, fumble, drop their weapon, and surfer wounds (discharges) while training in combat/tactical courses.

    I privately train people now days, i focus on tactical reaction to trauma situations, because that's what will save your life, standing fast reaching for your weapon in a split second does not increase the survival rate as a conceal carry citizen. People who carry conceal just don't train enough CONSTANTLY to be that good under pressure, but teaching people to react, by MOVING, creating DISTANCE, and COVER greatly increases their survival rate, and that's what counts at the end of the day.

    Trauma, people forget that part, ITS NOT T.V Trauma, Shock, Body Burn/PAIN happens when you get shot .... I had guy next to me take a shot (32 cal) to the front upper chest above the pectoral muscle which ended coming out and shattering his Jaw, i believe he became the target because i was moving and drawing, he stood fast and drew his weapon, and the aggressor choose to shoot at the easier target.

    Anyone remember the OSWALD/ruby shot, the photo that was captured when Ruby shot Oswald, or the Reagan assassination attempt when Delahanty, McCarthy, Brady, and Reagan were hit, Its traumatic, it freezes/stuns you, and everyone around you. Most people don't die from a gun shot (excluding hitting the heart)... they die from bleeding out, Reagan and the others did survive.

    Shooting of Ronald Reagan | National Geographic Channel

    If i had one arm incapacitated switching magazines and racking with one arm is no big deal. The lack of tactical training prevents knowledge of understanding why and when you do AND DON'T do certain things. I don't advocate carrying a non-chamber weapon, and i keep saying it so everyone understands that's not the point i'm driving across with my post. If someone ask me whether they should carry a weapon chambered or not, i would never tell them their better off carrying a non-chambered weapon.

    I carry a NON-CHAMBER WEAPON, and my training doesn't make it a handicap, i will draw my weapon up to my arm pit.. rack and fire from the armpit position while moving... faster, and with more hits than most street target shooters , my primary reaction to a TRAUMA/shots fired situation is MOVING, DISTANCE, AND COVER. I'm never compromised by an action because i always have a REACTION.

    The more your trained... the more you can do, the more you can innovate with confidence. There's no way to train for the unknown...

    The best you could do is default to your training.
    Jeez.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Unfettered Might View Post
    I think this is the first time I've ever read anything you've written and disagreed CST.

    I don't think it's a question of personal preference, how you like your steak cooked would fall into that subject.

    It's a question of superior tactics. Given the time to react, as in your not the victim in the attack or you see it coming, having to rack is fine. But when you have mere seconds or less to react, most gunfights are over in 3 seconds or less, the extra time to rack or the potential for a misfeed, are too great to ignore.

    I suggest that any of you try to draw, rack and fire with a chronograph and then do the same without having to rack and compare the difference. Anyone who thinks that they are just as quick are foolish.

    A lot of semi-auto firearms have internal safeties that bring the chances of a misfire into the astronomical range. My Taurus PT-92 disengages the firing pin when the hammer has come to rest after cycling the pin, only re-engaging immediately once the hammer leaves the seat. I even tested the viability of this automatic safety by setting up a bench vise to hold the firearm and using a nail set and a hammer to drive on the back of the hammer in it's at rest position. Of course the gun didn't fire, add to that a good retention holster that completely covers the trigger and you are NOT going to have a misfire.

    All that being said, carry however you like. But I intend to increase my chances of living so one in the chamber for me.
    If you have an understanding that a semiautomatic pistol that has no grip safety, no thumb safety but simply a split trigger is as safe as the aforementioned with GRIP and THUMB safeties then you are sadly mistaken. I carry my Glocks, begrudgingly at the moment, with NY1 triggers and hot. Why? Because it's the right thing to do for personal safety. I also carry them in premium holsters to prevent any mishaps with the trigger.

    Revolvers are inherently safer as if the cylinder does not turn it will not fire. Right? So unless you are carrying your revolver cocked it's a whole lot safer than your Glock.

    I guess what I am trying to say is simply that keeping your trigger finger off the trigger is not the be-all and end-all of firearm safety when carrying, especially concealed. There are many more factors to consider.

    I think I am getting tired enough of the armchair quarterbacks on this thread to stop banging my head against the wall by reading it. There seem to be a whole lot of 'trainers', experts and the like popping out of the woodworks whom have read a book or watched a DVD.

    Out of curiousity, how many participate in IPSC/IDPA for live fire practice on the range? I thought so.

    It gets so scarey listening to some of the posts in these threads that one almost wants to run out and say to heck with the second amendment.... time for some serious gun control. Too many running around with firearms that should not be.

    Get some training. Do some research. Think about the matter at hand and then and only then take the time to make an educated decision.... if you are smart you will realize that not all situations are the same, not all guns are the same and not all comfort levels are the same. Not all gun owners are prepared to do more than plunk down their money for the gun and license and start shooting away. It is a pity because, having seen the results of poor training and poor habits I have been playing with this matter for five years now. That does NOT mean that I don't carry when legal to do so. It simply means that I have not reached the end of my education and come to a firm decision.

    What do you use?
    I carry a Glock 26 or Glock 30 with ported barrel and NY1 triggers when carrying OWB in a very solid and reliable holster. I prefer to carry a Sig P239 for the 8# first pull and 3# pulls thereafter. No safety - a decocker. The Glocks are, as far as I am concerned, cocked and unlocked as soon as you put one into the chamber. My HK P7M8 is a wonderful semi... a squeeze cocker and I would be happy to carry it down my underpants without a holster anytime. It is an ultra safe 9mm and has an inline barrel to boot. I had custom leather made for it so that I can carry IWB or OWB. If it was feasible for me I would carry a snubbie at times as well - safe as heck. Like I said, the cylinder doesn't turn the gun isn't going to fire. Period. So it would go into a really good leather holster. And as for 1911's - I love them. Ditto the Springfield XD45. Grip safeties. Thumb safeties. They have their place when their size is considered.

    You can go nuts trying to figure this all out.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by hollie1 View Post
    Do you thing I'm totally inexperienced with weapons! Or is it that I'm female & you think I'm not smart enough to know if I should or shouldn't fire a weapon! I will tell you I've been in situations where I've had to think quickly act on my feet,make choices! I'm far from stupid! I've been in charge of my own life & needs since I was 14! That includes major surgeries & not just a bandaid ! I've seen & witnessed more than you'll ever know or that I would ever share on this board!
    The fact that I carry with one in the camber is my choice! Yes I can rack my weapon,load my weapons,& I can hit the target dead center. At 30 ft with out resting my hand on anything I can load & rack,then empty 2 mags in the bull eyes with the following; 27-glock,Busa-45,Pt-709 Taurus,Pt-738 380 Taurus! Then we have also a 38-air weight S/W ho yes one more Ruger Super Red Hawk -454!! These I can also do the same with!
    So now just for fun because I know I can I'm working on pushing the target furthet back.
    If theres a perp out to get you hes gonna be a lot closer than 30 ft! General rule here in TN is the 21ft rule!If you feel your lifes threatened! And yes I can hit the target at the closer range too in the center!
    Always in the back of my mind NO ONE is gonna take me down with out a fight! Been there growing up!No way has an Adult will that happen!
    I can take advice & critisism & have from differant people! Wether you want to believe that or not! I'm Ok with it! I want help & advice! But you have never seen me shoot & are assuming I don't know anything! Most likely because Im a newbie on this broad & with my CCW Permit! I'm far from a newbie with weapons! One more thing Hubby & I for years use to shoot Rifles & Shot Guns! I did good with them too!
    Next time before you make comments to someone why don't you ask what they can do & what they know!

    Hollie1, Don't take it so personal, i wouldn't know you if i was standing next to you, and i don't see the need for you to defend, or legitimize yourself, all i did was make a statement. I really don't care how good or bad you are, or how much training/experience you have, if... and when i post, just take it for what its worth.

    REALLY...
    If i was to ask people on the internet what they know and what they can do... they would sound like their a combination of JEFF COOPER, AUDIE MURPHY, and BRUCE LEE. come on...haha

    EVERYONE LIES... i never try to impress people by what i can do, done, or know... i just want to impress upon them the need for training. I'd just like people to stop and think for one minute, and then pursue the thought on their own base on my opinion if they choose to. Good Luck to you... stay safe.

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