To Chamber or Not to Chamber? - Page 14
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Thread: To Chamber or Not to Chamber?

  1. I think everyone is essentially on the same wavelength here except for the few that pick up a pistol, a permit and go ahead and carry concealed and hot without live fire and tactical practice. One of the first things that we were taught in basic pistol was mindset... you need to be constantly aware of your surroundings and what is going on around you. You need to be aware of the laws of the location that you are in (not all locations have castle-doctrine, not all locations give you the right NOT to retreat to avoid confrontation although it's a pretty good idea in any event), and so on.

    What we haven't really spoken of here is 'mindset' in the jumble of things that have been discussed and regardless of where you have trained, if the training was proper, it would have included some time devoted to mindset. Be aware of what is going on around you, be aware of your rights and the laws, be aware of your instantaneous ability to defend yourself (i.e. do you indeed have one in the chamber and what do you need to do in order to fire a round or three) and so on. One needs to be aware that just showing a pistol is going to raise the level of the confrontation exponentially or it could end the confrontation, but brandishing laws will vary from state to state and in many cases if you show it you had better be prepared to use it. And using it should be a 'reflexive, instinctive' reaction to circumstances that have been drilled into your mindset repeatedly. Above all, the common ground is that you need to be in fear for your imminent loss of life or severe harm... and the key is imminent. Got an email from one of the training places yesterday with a scenario where a fellow high on drugs, with a crowbar, is beating on your car and smashing windows. When can you say you are justified in shooting and feel comfortable with what you have done? You are the driver of the car and alone. The answer may vary slightly for some, but the bottom line is that prior to use of the gun you are carrying you have a 4000 pound car surrounding you and the court is going to ask you why you did not simply drive off? The gunfight best won is the gunfight avoided.

    Further, training should (make that MUST) include tactical probabilities. For instance, I have a guy with a gun pointed at my nose (and I have had this situation happen to ME!). Do you draw and fire hoping to get 'the drop' on the BG? This is one reason I am a huge believer in carrying with one in the chamber and a reason that I love my Glocks and my Sig so much. All I need to do is pull the trigger to make bang. I am struggling with the issue of having a grip safety and a thumb safety and I tend to go with a semiautomatic and on my wish list is (a) a decocker and (b) a grip safety. I do use Para P1640's for IPSC/IDPA and have developed a dislike for thumb safeties as of late as I do occasionally fumble them under pressure and would hate to have that one in a hundred chance of doing the same in real life.

    So, what did I do? I waited for my opportunity and then floored it. The bad guy was stunned and never fired a shot. Had I attempted to draw and fire, even with one chambered and ready to go (like with my Glocks or Sig) chances are he would have had enough time to see what was happening and shoot me. For whatever reason, the smoke, dirt and dust momentarily distracted him and allowed me to make distance... he decided not to shoot thank goodness and I think about THAT situation in Orlando quite often. It was the result of being told/trained that the reaction to being confronted by a gun was NOT immediate draw and shoot... that gets folks shot or killed. I was also trained to MOVE... it is a distraction and increases odds for survival considerably. And I was also trained to seek out and use cover... or MAKE cover (even if that cover was only your arm thrown up in front of you - better to have a chance of your arm/bone deflecting the perp's shot than nothing at all, right?). And so on.

    But above all, the one thing that really sticks in my mind was the training session whereby I was actually disarmed from 17 or 18 feet KNOWING what was about to take place (the room was small)! And that has stuck with me. And the simulations with movement versus no movement whereby I had to pull the trigger on an assailant who was standing still versus one who was moving in for the kill. What a difference! Please stand still Mr. Bad Guy! It is NOT easy shooting and hitting a moving target where you need to hit it.... so those 2 or 3 shots to the cardiovascular triangle (forget 'center of mass' - that's old school) and to the cerebelum triangle (basically shoot 'em in the nose for 'dead stop') is not as easy as shooting the X ring on a paper target at 25 feet, 15 feet, or 7 feet, which I do regularly at one of my clubs as that's all that is available there. I also belong to a club that does plenty of IPSC/IDPA/PPC and try and get out as often as I can.... not only is this good practice but it makes one realize that shooting while on the move or at a moving target or popper is a whole lot different than moving, stopping, drawing, shooting, holstering and moving again. And one MUST realize this in order to make a rapid and reflexive decision on all sorts of things, not the least of which is shoot/no shoot.

    So, back to one in the chamber or not. It is, as I said earlier, a matter of personal comfort and education I believe. I have reached the point where I am a believer that one in the chamber... carrying "HOT" is very necessary to increase your odds of survival. What I struggle with now is the notion of safety in carrying and have trouble carrying, for example, a Glock (which again, is loaded, cocked and ready to go AFAIK) down the front of my pants. I am much more comfy carrying same in a really good OWB retention holster where the odds of getting something caught on that trigger are much slimmer. I am more comfy with something with a heavier first trigger pull like my Sig or that PT92 decocked so that in a time of great stress (I'm talking about those times where your body evacuates itself) and I try to reholster with my finger still inside the trigger guard, I still have something standing between reholstering and BANG!... something like a grip safety, thumb safety or just the decocked first trigger pull D/A at 8# to remind me that my thumb is where it shouldn't be.

    Of course, John Wayne would never have such an issue and many instructors, in order to get through other important course material will gloss over this aspect of safety (these aspectS of safety) and many go blissfully about their business without worrying about AD/ND's. But I can assure you that they DO happen and there are only two things that will prevent them or increase the odds of prevention: training/education and practice.

    So, I have the training (never enough); I have the practice (never enough) and I am convinced that carrying "hot" is a necessity. What chews up my time now is WHAT to carry for maximum efficiancy yet maximum safety in case of an "oooops". And like I say, I love my Sig P239 with decocker - viewing it as a happy mix between mechanical safety and rapid deployment capability. The only thing I can see that would perhaps be better is to add a grip safety to the mix (no thumb safety), like the Springfield XD's and am now looking at them since they came out with compacts.

    Be safe out there!

  2.   
  3. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by gunsite View Post
    You don't lie... never... ever, not even on your tax return... haha.

    Would you tell a lie in order to protect the truth... lol
    NO!
    You need to get over your self! Go "TRY" an bully another you will not bully me!! Besides You Bore ME!
    I will continue to carry one in the chamber!

  4. #133
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Santa Fe Area, New Mexico
    Posts
    3,487

    Cocked & Locked

    I have started carrying my 45 Cal 1911 in the C&L position, option 3 to some. Although a bit ominous at the beginning, the articles I read made perfectly good sense to me. A 1911 MOD1 has a grip safety as well as a trigger lock (thumb safety). When both engaged, no mishaps will be had. Drawing the weapon from the holstered position (shoulder) you will be setting a firm grip for the presentation of the weapon (First safety dis-engaged). As the target becomes in the line of fire the trigger lock can be disengaged with the thumb (second safety) allowing discharge at your convenience. Hope this helps

    Sooner to be judged by 12, then carried by 6. Let the decision be YOURS!

  5. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by jtg452 View Post
    I'm new here but I've been shooting since I was old enough to keep both the butt and the barrel off the ground at the same time and I've been carrying concealed for about 20 years now.

    Here's a nickel's worth of my free opinion on the matter. Like it or don't like it, agree or disagree as you wish. Don't bother arguing, because I really don't care if you agree or not.

    If you are not comfortable carrying a loaded gun, don't waste your money on a concealed carry permit because you aren't ready to make use of it.

    If you don't want to carry a loaded gun because 'it's dangerous' or you might have an 'accident', what makes you think you will actually be able to use it if -heaven forbid- that time comes?

    If you are not comfortable carrying a particular gun with a round in the chamber, then it's not the gun for you to use as a concealed carry piece. Find one you are comfortable with.

    Carrying an unloaded gun -and a gun that won't go BANG when you disengage any safeties it has and press the trigger is unloaded- is being a gun bearer for a mugger. Do the rest of us a favor and leave it at home. That way, the mugger(s) can't take it away from you and use it on ME later.

    Yes, I have heard of the "Israeli Method". The Israelis that developed it are extraordinarily well trained warriors that have mastered multiple disciplines of both armed and unarmed combat.

    When you have studied multiple martial arts forms (including Krav Magav) for years and practiced countless hours and shot thousands of rounds of live fire to perfect your technique and make it instinctual, we can talk. Me? I'm lucky if I get to shoot a couple hundred rounds a month most of the time. That's just enough to keep the rust from setting in.

    Get Hollywood out of your mind. Muggers aren't going to slip out of an alley alone, walk right up to you with his hand in his coat pocket and say, "Gimme your wallet," like it's some '70's vigilante flick.

    They'll catch you distracted, out of position to protect yourself and isolated. Maybe you are loading groceries in your car or you're walking through the mall parking lot. And they may not be alone. You may end up fighting off an attacker with your hands. You may end up on the ground from the very beginning because they blitz attacked you. You may be injured and one arm may be incapacitated.
    Yes I too agree!

  6. #135
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    MA, Away from the liberal loonies...
    Posts
    2,658
    Pro: Time...
    Con: Time...

    Again we are all free to do as we wish. If you feel OK with one in the chamber carry your weapon that way. If you feel like it's going to be an issue, perhaps you carry with a clear chamber or a revolver if it makes you feel safer.

    If you choose to carry that way make sure you can respond to a threat quickly and make the firearm usable and not loose it. I agree with the other poster who wrote that to loose control of a firearm is not only dangerous to you but to all the rest of the people he/she now has the potential to harm with your weapon.

    I'm going to abstain from the name calling and hostile rebukes and reprove that I see here. Be cautious about how or who you chastise in a forum like this. There are many here who have some good advice and who have had the real world experience of a shooting incident or combat with firearms. What you think you may be able to handle should the situation arise, may become a moment that a mistake could cost you what time you have left in the world.

    Having one in the chamber and having the firearm in a ready condition that is safe can make a huge difference. Adding laser grips, night sights, or other tools (that you should train with) to your defense weapon could give you the advantage that will allow you to tell your story to others who have questions like “one in the chamber or not?”.. Self defense is not a fair fight situation..

    We all have choices so make the one that fits for you. After all you’re the one who has to live or die by it.
    You can give peace a chance alright..

    I'll seek cover in case it goes badly..

  7. #136

    Carried Gun vs. Picked up gun

    For defensive sidearms I distinguish between two catogories of firearm, Holstered and Picked up. Let me explain the difference. A holstered gun is in some time of holster either on the person or imediately at hand. A picked up gun is obtained from some location not usually imediately at hand, i.e. a gun you go get as opposed to one just would just grab.

    A holstered gun I keep with a round chambered. This includes a carry sidearm in a belt, shoulder, ankle or pocket holster. A firearm carried or stored in a jacket or vest type holster is also kept with a round in the chamber. Firearms carried in an off body method, such as briefcase, dayplanner, backpack are also considered holstered and kept with a round in the chamber.

    A picked up gun is one that is stowed or stored not in a holster. For example, in a glove box, tool box, hollowed out book, or in a drawer. This would be a gun I would go to in a deffensive situation and not one that would be at hand. Picked up guns are kept with the chamber empty.

    A couple of more notes, I typically carry Glock Pistols which with their three built-in safeties are some of the safest guns to carry. Any holster I use always covers the trigger guard area completely. Most holsters I use feature some type of thumb-break retention strap.

  8. #137
    Well we have to look at the situation.
    1. is there clear and present danger?
    2. Do we want to risk the priviledge of carrying for ND. It happens with the best trained people around. I have seen it during training.
    3. Those who CCW how often did you really have to draw your weapon?
    4. Most of us are not in LE and we really do not need to be in condition 1
    I want to hear your comments.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Well we have to look at the situation.
    1. is there clear and present danger?
    2. Do we want to risk the priviledge of carrying for ND. It happens with the best trained people around. I have seen it during training.
    3. Those who CCW how often did you really have to draw your weapon?
    4. Most of us are not in LE and we really do not need to be in condition 1
    I want to hear your comments.
    Alpha: With all due respect, the topics that you itemize are exactly what the last 14 pages of this thread have been discussing. You need to pick up a copy of Chis Bird's books, THE CONCEALED HANDGUN BOOK and THANK GOD I HAD A GUN and read the first hand accounts of lethal force situations. They will give you a good handle on whether or not carrying 'hot' is for you or not.

    I can tell you that I have read the books cover to cover several times and found them to be very interesting and educational; they just confirmed for me my decision to carry 'hot' at all times and I believe for any right thinking individual they will do the same.

    They will also clearly define for you the aftermath of a self defence shooting, justified and 'slam dunk'. Not really. You have a very good chance of being arrested, charged with murder and spending some time in jail before being bonded out (if you're lucky) and that's only the beginning of your grief.

    The books, amongst other training, books, etc., are an excellent source of information - but in the end it is you that will have to make up your mind.

    To reiterate: In MY case, the decision is to carry hot all the time. Period. Secondly, the decision is to carry wherever and whenever legal to do so (I have seven concealed carry permits and still cannot carry in all the places I would want to). And lastly, the decision of what to carry. THAT is what sits on my mind these days. I carry my G30 and G26 a lot due to size and weight, reliability and accuracy. They are amongst the LEAST safe of carry weapons - do not believe what you read about there being "three safeties" as that is pure BS. When you carry a Glock you are carry a double action, ready to go, handgun. Period. You pull the trigger and it goes bang. Period. End of story. That is their greatest weakness and at the same time it is their greatest strength. If I could have my Glocks with a grip safety I would be in heaven. So I look at the XD's and the reliable 1911's (there aren't that many I trust my life to). I am leaning towards switching to the XD's because all I need to do is draw, squeeze the grip and shoot. Ditto my HK P7M8 although the weight and calibre leave something to be desired, the HK P7M8 is a favourite as I have no qualms about just tossing it into a pocket or a bag to carry it... it takes some considerable effort to squeeze cock it and let off a round.... it is reputed to be the fastest handgun to action and the safest and I would agree wholeheartedly but it takes some getting used to. I love it asides from the weight and calibre (9mm). Much prefer .357 or .45 in a well engineered round.

    So, my advice is to head back to the beginning of this thread and read it and use the search tool to find the other threads that have hashed out this "never ending story" for your answers. They are most assuredly there... or at least the info is there for you to make your own personal choice. The above is my personal choice after being in situations where one in the chamber, ready to rock, would be a lifesaver. Even the ubiquitous thumb safety is too much safety for me today.... I use it in training but I don't have to like it. When my blood pressure climbs to 250 over 90 in a stress situation, the last thing I want to be doing is fumbling with a thumb safety. I want to draw, grip the gun strongly and pull the trigger. THAT IS IT. And the XD's and others have recognized this need and are filling it (much as HK did with their P7 line... which was unfortunately too well-built and expensive for the north american market). I own two of them. I have no hesitation in carrying them in a backpack, a bag, a pocket or stuffed in my underwear. They are the safest and fastest handgun on the market I think, albeit the wrong calibre for me and a bit too heavy.

    Read the threads, read the books... most assuredly the answer will become readily apparent to you before too long. Promise.

  10. Sure, I'll repeat myself!! It's just a little cut and paste work

    1. That depends on the exact circumstances at the exact moment. No amount of Monday Morning Quarterbacking or 'What if..." will answer your question.

    2."If you are not comfortable carrying a loaded gun, don't waste your money on a concealed carry permit because you aren't ready to make use of it. If you don't want to carry a loaded gun because 'it's dangerous' or you might have an 'accident', what makes you think you will actually be able to use it if -heaven forbid- that time comes?"

    3.Once in 20 years, with a second time where I started the draw and the situation diffused before I cleared leather. No shots fired and in both circumstances, if I had fired, it would have been completely justified.

    4."Carrying an unloaded gun -and a gun that won't go BANG when you disengage any safeties it has and press the trigger is unloaded- is being a gun bearer for a mugger. Do the rest of us a favor and leave it at home. That way, the mugger(s) can't take it away from you and use it on ME later. Get Hollywood out of your mind. Muggers aren't going to slip out of an alley alone, walk right up to you with his hand in his coat pocket and say, "Gimme your wallet," like it's some '70's vigilante flick. They'll catch you distracted, out of position to protect yourself and isolated. Maybe you are loading groceries in your car or you're walking through the mall parking lot. And they may not be alone. You may end up fighting off an attacker with your hands. You may end up on the ground from the very beginning because they blitz attacked you. You may be injured and one arm may be incapacitated."

    I'd suggest a half a brick instead. Why a half a brick? Because they are much cheaper than an empty pistol and easier to throw. Besides, then you don't need to worry about a permit.

  11. I will carry with a SP101 Ruger which is technically one in the chamber with DAO. I am looking at some point in the near future to get a HK USP compact .45 which has a safety/decocker. In that pistol, I will have a decocked but chambered round with safety on. One flick of the safety with the thumb when drawing from the holster gives me a double action shot followed by SA. That gives me some semblance of safety features with one action to place the weapon in action. Since that can be done in the same process of drawing the gun, there is no decline in putting it into use. There is more than one way to approach the same issue.

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