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Thread: To Chamber or Not to Chamber?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by festus View Post
    I carry Israeli draw, SOB. I have practiced presenting and firing at my berm a lot.I do not care if I am carrying a load of groceries. I can buy more. It takes me no more time to present this way than to draw and fire from a loaded chamber.

    This is my personal choice. It is what I am comfortable with and how I trained since 2006.

    I am happy with it.
    WWJD?
    I think he would carry with one in the chamber.

    Here is a look at the Israeli draw.

    From Wikipedia:

    The "Israeli Method" is a point shooting system devised by the Israel Defense Force (IDF) for use in training personnel to use rifles, submachineguns, and handguns.

    In its initial stages of training, it closely resembles the Fairbairn, Sykes, and Applegate (FSA) method described above. In later stages, training in the rapid acquisition of the sights is taught, as well as a more advanced method of pointshooting.

    In the United States and Canada, the term "Israeli Method" is generally believed to refer to the carrying of a semiautomatic pistol with its chamber empty. However, the carrying of the chamber empty served a safety consideration, rather than a tactical consideration. In past decades, due to severe budget constraints, IDF purchased and issued large quantities of antiquated sidearms, the mechanical safety of which was questionable. In recent decades, as budget concerns are increasingly alleviated and more modern, standardized sidearms are issued, this mode of carry is increasingly being phased out. It should also be noted that specialized personnel, such as police and special forces units, have typically carried newer and safer firearms, and have rarely used this mode of carry.

  2.   
  3. I think that if you need to draw your weapon, it should be ready to fire. It cound take too much time to draw, rack, and shoot.

    Definetely one in the chamber.

  4. #153
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    Exclamation Wwjd???

    Quote Originally Posted by theicemanmpls View Post
    WWJD?
    I think he would carry with one in the chamber.

    Here is a look at the Israeli draw.

    From Wikipedia:

    The "Israeli Method" is a point shooting system devised by the Israel Defense Force (IDF) for use in training personnel to use rifles, submachineguns, and handguns.

    In its initial stages of training, it closely resembles the Fairbairn, Sykes, and Applegate (FSA) method described above. In later stages, training in the rapid acquisition of the sights is taught, as well as a more advanced method of pointshooting.

    In the United States and Canada, the term "Israeli Method" is generally believed to refer to the carrying of a semiautomatic pistol with its chamber empty. However, the carrying of the chamber empty served a safety consideration, rather than a tactical consideration. In past decades, due to severe budget constraints, IDF purchased and issued large quantities of antiquated sidearms, the mechanical safety of which was questionable. In recent decades, as budget concerns are increasingly alleviated and more modern, standardized sidearms are issued, this mode of carry is increasingly being phased out. It should also be noted that specialized personnel, such as police and special forces units, have typically carried newer and safer firearms, and have rarely used this mode of carry.
    What does Jesus have to do with this?
    When i was Active duty AF we were trained to carry a M-9 with one in the chamber set to fire, hammer down.

    I personally like Israeli draw...and...I still don't under stand what Jesus has to do with it?
    FESTUS
    IN OMNIA PARATUS

  5. #154
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    To Chamber or Not to Chamber?

    Quote Originally Posted by festus View Post
    What does Jesus have to do with this?
    When i was Active duty AF we were trained to carry a M-9 with one in the chamber set to fire, hammer down.

    I personally like Israeli draw...and...I still don't under stand what Jesus has to do with it?
    I think he is referring to Jesus as a Rabbi (ie Jewish), as the Israeli's are Jewish.
    www.holstershock.com

    Tell 'em CDR Glock sent ya!

  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy View Post
    Above all - remember that it is a nasty, mean, ignorant, sick in the head, beastly world out there and when the chips are down it is you and only you that will need to protect both yourself and your loved ones. Be prepared to do so and get yourself trained and well practiced so that it is reflexive. And choose your weapon wisely. Your life WILL one day depend on it; of that I can absolutely assure you. We have been held up, accosted, two home invasion attempts (one succesful but non violent), etc. I guess you don't want to be around me... its dangerous.
    Great post man, great post. Especially the last paragraph. I love the attitude.
    "A man's got to have a code, a creed to live by, no matter his job." - John Wayne

  7. Quote Originally Posted by festus View Post
    I carry Israeli draw, SOB. I have practiced presenting and firing at my berm a lot.I do not care if I am carrying a load of groceries. I can buy more. It takes me no more time to present this way than to draw and fire from a loaded chamber.

    This is my personal choice. It is what I am comfortable with and how I trained since 2006.

    I am happy with it.
    And so was I until I was accosted by a fellow with a huge honkin revolver while I was seat belted in my van with my family; to have discretely drawn and placed a round might have been possible. However, to have drawn, racked the slide (and if needed flipped the safety) and THEN taken a discrete shot would have been absolutely impossible. On top of that, even the fraction of a second to rack the slide would have decimated the "action beats reaction" theory to death and this whacko would have likely had time to take a bead on my head and let one rip.

    So, again, I say that not all situations are going to be criticaly in need of having a round chambered and hot... but I know that in my case that it would have been absolutely essential, life or death. As it turned out, all I needed to do was floor it while he was ranting and waving his gun around and pray that he did not follow us in a hail of lead... which he did NOT do (thank the Lord).

    In the end, my PERSONAL decision is that I will choose a firearm that has sufficient safety to permit me to carry it with one chambered and hot (i.e. cocked). The tradeoff in potential ND/AD's is so small that my decision was easy.

    I love my Glocks although they are the mose UNSAFE to carry in this way (I have installed heavier triggers in my carry Glocks); and I love other of my guns that are far, far safer to carry 'hot', such as my Springfield XD's, my HK P7M8 and P7PSP and so on. And, of course, revolvers with the hammer down on an empty chamber is always safe as heck - it takes a huge trigger squeeze to get a round away generally. So there are choices to be made and in the end you want to be comfy with what you do but I again reiterate that there will be situations where carrying one in the chamber and hot will make the difference between life and death.

    There is no second place winner in a gunfight - be prepared to come out on top whatever it takes and if that means that you need to save up the pennies and buy something a bit safer then you need to really consider that.

    The "Israeli" method is not intended to fend off bad guys intent on robbing you, by the way and therefore, the fraction of a second it will take to rack one and fire makes little difference. When you are strapped into your car with a guy at your window with a gun pointed at your head or with a baseball bat asking you politely to step out of your car or better yet to move over so he can get it... you need a gun with a chambered round and hot. THAT will be the difference between a good outcome and otherwise.

    A few words of wisdom from one who has been there in both situations (where carrying hot would have made a big difference and where carrying hot made no difference at all). Take it and make YOUR decision. It took me, by the way, something like two years before I came to my conclusion and was comfy carrying chambered and hot. And I have never looked back nor have I ever felt at risk for carrying that way.

    Take a Springfield XD and try to get it to 'fire' (empty - dry fire) any way you can excepting pulling on the trigger. And then stuff a bunch of your shirt around the trigger and play with it WITHOUT SQUEEZING on the grip safety. Drop the gun, bang in off a concrete wall, stick it in a paper bag and shake it around for an hour. I can guarantee you that it will not go 'bang' until you squeeze that grip and pull that trigger at the same time. Ditto the HK P7 series.... so safe, in fact, that I have no hesitation tossing one in my pocket sans holster even if I am running down to the corner store or whatever. It simply will NOT happen!

    In the end, each to his or her own I suppose; I can only relate my personal journey to carrying hot and chambered and my personal experiences of lethal force incidents. It is YOU that needs to come to the conclusions that I did in order to be comfy. And I think after doing the same research that I did and perhaps thinking about being in the same positions that I was in, you will come to the same conclusion. If I am carrying in the woods to protect myself from predator animals asides from humans, perhaps... but in the big city? Chambered and hot all the time and with the right gun all the time. It is safe and comfy as heck.

  8. #157
    Chamber load on XD9mm subcompact and ready to go. What the use of carrying if not ready?

  9. #158
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    Exclamation Israeli draw !!!

    FESTUS
    IN OMNIA PARATUS

  10. #159
    dusted Guest
    wow, i have never been happier in my life to not live in the gaza strip or anywhere like it, such as toronto apparently. i do have to say, however, that if you're worried about a double action, striker fired weapon being too dangerous to carry condition 1 then maybe a cudgel is the way to go (i carry a s&w sigma, safe fire double action). a gun is DANGEROUS. period. what makes it safe enough to be at all useful is the possessor i suppose. i carry cond. 1 all the time be it pistol or revolver and never had a mishap (to put it lightly enough). and maybe it isn't the best thing to do but i carry my beretta 92 cond. 1 cocked and unlocked (being a double/single action). my ideologies may change when i add a 1911 to my collection, however but honestly, is that not an "i kill you" gun and not an "i protect me" gun? semantics, i suppose

  11. Quote Originally Posted by CLAYCOMO TRUCKS View Post
    Chamber load on XD9mm subcompact and ready to go. What the use of carrying if not ready?
    With all due respect I think that is just what I finished saying. The XD series has a grip safety. One more link in a line of safety devices that makes carrying the gun rapid to first round fired while being safe if your finger happens to remain on the trigger while reholstering or if a piece of shirt gets caught while carrying.

    I truly wish that gun owners would learn the intricacies of their firearms before babbling off.

    The Glocks, of which I am intimately familiar and have several, are NOT a single action semi with ANY sort of reasonable safety. The fact that they are considered double action is a pure fluke and they are 90% cocked and unlocked with nary a thumb nor grip safey of any kind preventing a ND. In terms of comparing them to a revolver, that is not really valid as a revolver needs to have its cylinder turn to the next 'lineup' in order to be able to fire (assuming they are double action). A revolver stuck in a proper fitting leather holster would make this feat impossible or at least next to impossible.

    Please, guys, learn about your firearms before running around with them. They are not toys.

    The "Israeli draw" is BS as far as I am concerned. I have several friends who have served in the Israeli military or have carried guns in Israel. It is simply a means of safe carry and nothing more.

    The object of the game is, when tactile senses are reduced and your fingers and hands feel like mudpies, to be able to get that first round off rapidly and accurately; hence the reason for carrying a Glock with one in the chamber and living with it, or carrying a 1911 with safety on and a grip safety with one in the chamber and hot. It is fast to first accurate round placement- the difference between life and death.

    There are times when I really do think that a much higher standard of training and testing and background checking is needed for those wishing to purchase handguns or ANY guns for that matter regardless of the second amendment.

    No imbeciles and no whackos and no felons. That pretty much sums it up. If you fit into one of these groups please pack up your firearms and take them down to the nearest police station for disposal.

    Or you can get out and get some training so that you understand the difference between firearms and why the Glock, while being a superb firearm (I carry a G30 at the moment) are NOT double action AND have no safeties asides from the meagre passive safeties incorporated by law.

    Jeez.

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