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Thread: Private Security Officer Asks To See Your Permit

  1. #41
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by hp-hobo View Post
    But was she a whore as stated by Twodollarpistol?
    Her level of intoxication is relevant because it can impact how the guard might have perceived the incident. Whether or not she was a whore is irrelevant
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

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  3. #42
    Touchy topic.
    In most cases,the security person ell(referred to on this forum as the Offensive"wanna-be") are charged with protecting property thru the most minimal of measures.
    Bearing in mind that this scenario is 'hypothetical' one,we dont know a few things such as State of operation of the guard,Laws in that State for guards,and operational guidelines (aka general orders) for that guard in the facility that he was charged to protect.
    In my State(Illinois) legal authorizations to detain and/or arrest are allowed (granted) to the Security Guard however they are site Dependant. Some guards monitor a desk and require ID or you to sign in prior to your entry,your refusal to comply results in your denial of access.Some like TSA(which is a SECURITY AGENCY) require you to submit to search,some,like Chicago Housing grant full arrest powers including execution of warrants.
    Now,lets take this scenario down to a more narrow scope. Lets say,this occurred in the confines of a Chicago Housing Project.After arriving on the scene of the altercation and hearing from a clearly intoxicated subject that you "had a gun",
    I would have asked you for your permit.And I would have asked you for your Identification(DL or ID card) Had you answered affirmatively to the "do you have a weapon on" question,YES you would have been at very minimum asked to not place your hands anywhere near that weapon.In answer to the "I would have walked away" response....no you would not have walked away since the moment you stated you had a weapon there existed an immediate safety issue and the scenario went from mere interview to detention pursuant to field investigation and police would have been called. It is at THIS POINT that you make a critical life changing decision.Do you walk away or do you stay.Should you decide to walk away,that under Illinois law is called Obstruction,for which you can and will be arrested.(Illinois Law,Protected Employee Act) Insofar as the drunk woman is concerned,I would have investigated her claim,and MOSTLIKELY determined that you both should leave the complex.You would NOT have been required to surrender your CCW only produce it for inspection and validity check(we can do that)
    But bearing in mind that this scenario took place in Illinois and there IS NO CCW,
    your open admission of being in possession of a firearm would have been sufficient probable cause (Williams V Illinois,1999) for detention.Had you not had the proper Illinois credentials,(FOID ect) the detention WOULD HAVE turned into an arrest for Unlawful Use of Weapon.
    The general interpretation that guards are "buffs" and often times exceed their boundries is flawed on many levels. Remember each state has different and far contrasting regulations governing Security Agencys.Some grant arrest powers and other restrict vastly what a guard can do. While I was operating in Public Housing,we did far more than simply smile and wave.Of 503 arrests,I netted 493 convictions.
    But in most applications this contact scenario should have ended with you both being asked to leave.Had you chosen NOT to leave then AT THAT POINT you were facing possible arrest for Criminal Trespassing.You were not being detained.You voluntarily remained and that was YOUR choice not that of the Security Officer.Does the guard have the right to ask you for your credentials? Yes. Does the Guard have the right to disarm you? That is a sticky one and while my answer is a resounding yes if you were in Illinois,that is not the blanket answer for other Guards assigned in other states.
    Thanks for providing a scenario situation.
    The best advice here would be that if you are going to be around those that are impared by alcohol and/or drugs,a smart and prudent person would choose not to.
    CCW licenses are hard to get and LE looks for ANY reason to violate your CCW.Be mindful of that in the future.

    ***And DONT let me catch you in the projects (Joking)


    Take care

    PA,AZ,NH,VA permit holder in CHICAGO.
    " We came,We Saw,We kicked their asses and when the screaming stopped,the blood dried,the smoke cleared and the dust settled...PEACE WAS RESTORED"

  4. #43
    JSDinTexas Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Twodollarpistol View Post
    I work for a private security company and as I understand it, we do not have the authority to make such request unless the individual is acting in a dangerous or irrational manner.
    On the other hand if I was the individual with the gun and I was behaving in a legal and responsible manner, I would advise that I would wait for the police to arrive. I would then be careful to keep my hands in full view at all times and try to not do anything to make the security officer nervous. He just trying to do his job in most cases and not trying to be a jerk.
    I will agree with most of this. My first thought was: What if the so-called security guard is not for real? I will not hand over my carry to ANYONE except a peace officer.

    Texas Govt Code
    411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. (a) If a license
    holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's
    person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license
    holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license
    holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the
    department and the license holder's handgun license.
    411.206. SEIZURE OF HANDGUN AND LICENSE. (a) If a
    peace officer arrests and takes into custody a license holder who is
    carrying a handgun under the authority of this subchapter, the officer
    shall seize the license holder's handgun and license as evidence.
    (b) The provisions of Article 18.19, Code of Criminal Procedure,
    relating to the disposition of weapons seized in connection with criminal
    offenses, apply to a handgun seized under this subsection.
    (c) Any judgment of conviction entered by any court for an offense
    under Section 46.035, Penal Code, must contain the handgun license
    number of the convicted license holder. A certified copy of the judgment
    is conclusive and sufficient evidence to justify revocation of a
    license under Section 411.186(a)(4).
    411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM.
    (a) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the
    officer's official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the
    officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the
    license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace officer shall
    return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license
    holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder
    is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if
    the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or
    committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license
    holder.

  5. Owning a private security company is tough. The 'rent a cop' banter is never ending. While I will be the first to admit that the job that a lot of guards to is dangerous, and that the industry as a whole needs more training, this is one aspect we educate on, it is part of our manuals, and is not taken lightly.

    In my state a security guard has no authority to validate a concealed weapons permit. A guard also has no authority to deprive a person of their property. There are exceptions to this of course.

    If someone is 'printing' but acting as a normal patron of the business they're assigned to no action is taken. If it is discovered during an encounter that someone is concealing a weapon, it entirely and 100% depends on the encounter.

    In the situation described above a reasonable person would assume that the female that is intoxicated is the source of the problem, rather than the person who is sober.

    No crime had been committed (arguing is not a crime). I wouldn't ask for the man's weapon. However, if the situation changed to where the guard had to detain or perform a citizens' arrest on the gentlemen then the firearm would be removed from the male's possession until law enforcement arrived and took control at which point the weapon would be transferred to their custody.
    Quick to the gun, Sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. - Chris Costa

  6. Quote Originally Posted by ClearSightTactical View Post
    Owning a private security company is tough. The 'rent a cop' banter is never ending. While I will be the first to admit that the job that a lot of guards to is dangerous, and that the industry as a whole needs more training, this is one aspect we educate on, it is part of our manuals, and is not taken lightly.

    In my state a security guard has no authority to validate a concealed weapons permit. A guard also has no authority to deprive a person of their property. There are exceptions to this of course.

    If someone is 'printing' but acting as a normal patron of the business they're assigned to no action is taken. If it is discovered during an encounter that someone is concealing a weapon, it entirely and 100% depends on the encounter.

    In the situation described above a reasonable person would assume that the female that is intoxicated is the source of the problem, rather than the person who is sober.

    No crime had been committed (arguing is not a crime). I wouldn't ask for the man's weapon. However, if the situation changed to where the guard had to detain or perform a citizens' arrest on the gentlemen then the firearm would be removed from the male's possession until law enforcement arrived and took control at which point the weapon would be transferred to their custody.
    Glad I'm in Florida. No such infraction as "printing".
    Rich - MSgt, USAF, Ret.
    Want to accomplish something for your gun rights?
    PITCH IN, QUIT B*TCHIN'

  7. Unless they are deputized/commissioned police officers in some manner and/or it is written in your State's laws that private security have search and seizure authority, then you disclose absolutely nothing and absolutely do not EVER surrender your firearm. Trying to be courteous or not, it creates a dangerous situation. Remember, everything that transpires between you and a security officer IS admissable in court and you DO NOT have to be read Miranda with a security officer unless the aforementioned is true.

    Think about that for a second and realize where that puts your rights and privacy for a second.

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkfish View Post
    Unless they are deputized/commissioned police officers in some manner and/or it is written in your State's laws that private security have search and seizure authority, then you disclose absolutely nothing and absolutely do not EVER surrender your firearm. Trying to be courteous or not, it creates a dangerous situation. Remember, everything that transpires between you and a security officer IS admissable in court and you DO NOT have to be read Miranda with a security officer unless the aforementioned is true.

    Think about that for a second and realize where that puts your rights and privacy for a second.

    You shouldn't need someone to remind you of your Miranda rights
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  9. In My State (GA) I would politely first tell the security guard that nothing is wrong, my friend had too much to drink, I am trying to get her home to safety. If questioned about being armed, I would again politely respond that is my affair,he has no authority to ask. (I am a retired LEO- BTW) No, I would not surrender my weapon to him under any circumstance. In GA, the most he can do is say "we do not allow firearms on our property" and he can ask me to leave...PERIOD. If he says that I must wait for the police I would politely say no thanks, there is no need, he does not have that authority to detain me. Get the drunk in the car or tell them THEY ARE WALKING HOME.

    then leave. No sweat, No strain.

  10. #49
    Additional:

    With respect to the Retired LEO in Georgia,glad you made retirement Brother.
    Again,each state has different regulations regarding what "non sworn" Security Officers can and cannot do. Another example of the difference in Illinois law is that if you are struck by an individual,the individual is charged with Battery to a Protected Employee,which can(in most cases) be upgraded to a Felony in my state.
    In other states it is merely a misdemeanor charge.
    While I and my crew may be the exception to the common beliefs out here,again,
    if this had transpired in Illinois and in Public Housing,and if you declared that you were the police or retired police.after you presented credentials to prove that,I most likely would have helped you get your drunk friend into the car and had a pleasant discussion about fishing.
    In regards to "printing", in my opinion and that of the SCOTUS,that does NOT satisfy probably cause for further inquiry,or contact. If your weapon was open carry,there would,AND YOU KNOW THIS,be an entirely different contact attitude in that there exists an immediate threat to my safety UNTIL VERIFIED.
    Let me preface by saying this.Simply because you are the police,does not exempt you from compliance to the laws.Tyipically in my encounters with off duty police,it is professional and polite. FOR EXAMPLE, One night I observed a male white hispanic,wearing a white t shirt and jeans approach a known drug area in my project.
    Upon further observation,I noted that the subject had what appeared to be a handgun on the right lower side of his body. I did not observe any form of visible police or security badge or insignias on this person. I responded to the area approached the subject and inquired as to why he had a gun on. Subject stated that he was Chicago Police and produced a chicago police badge # XXXXX and Police Id stating he was XXXXX. It was determined that subject was on complex property to visit family at XXXX street apartment XXX. All information was verified by reporting officer and subject was released.No further contact made. End.(taken from actual case report)

    I realize most security officers receive minimal if any training. I and my team went thru over 430 Hours of training including Illinois Law and Federal Housing Law.
    As you know Office,there is a WAY to do this job with tact and diplomacy while still getting the desired result.
    We contact people with guns on a daily basis in Chicago. Most of which are criminal and dangerous. We have an contractual obligation to our client to protect life and property at that location and that includes "ID stops" and if warranted,arrests.(criminal complaint is signed as either witness,victim,or agent on behalf of HUD)
    In the scenario provided,the initial contact would have been a 'well being check'.
    Like I said before,her declaration that "he has a gun" changes the dynamics of the stop. FROM THIS POINT FORWARD,how this is handled is a two prong dynamic. I of course will be looking out for my and the womans safety as is reasonable and prudent.I think in this contact all you would have been required to show me is your CCW permit. I would check expiration date and return it to you and AT THAT POINT
    the climate of the stop would immediately de escalate and Id help you get your friend into the car. What is pivotal here is the recurring statements that "you cant do that".
    If on public way and public property yes you are correct. But you state in the scenario that you are in a private parking garage where I CAN do that. Im sure you have faced similar circumstances as the police(where you are further restricted by law of evidence and probable and reasonable cause as well as Rights which is the string attatched to being SWORN)
    In Chicago mind you,we develop a very close relationship with the Gang,Drug,Tactical and Command units and they rely upon us for info and assistance in events involving the Housing Projects.Most of these contacts result in convictions for drugs,warrants,child support,ect ect ect. So yes we are "shittin and gettin"
    ANOTHER Example of this was when I was working part time at a retail outlet in the ghetto and a white couple came in. The man marveled at my gun(custom finish Beretta 96 w/ Hogue Blue flame grips ad meprolight sights in a hogue triple retention speed holster) which arose some concern with me. He stated that he was from Missouri.Knowing that MO is a carry state,I asked if I could see what the CCW permit looked like since we didnt have those in Illinois(The actual reason was to see if the man was armed...see....tact and diplomacy) He quickly showed me the permit and we engaged in a conversation about how CCW worked in his state. I asked then if he had a gun on him as i noticed he was wearing a Cabela's Concealement Vest. He stated no and offered to open the vest. I said that wasnt necessary. I did however inform the man about the oppressive anti gun laws in Illinois and to be careful and keep his weapon locked in the trunk. Point here is its all in how you play it. An over reactionary guard may have over reacted and the situation very well could have turned bloody ugly very quickly.
    Sorry for the long post but yes it ires me that there is this continuous degradation of Security persons.While in most cases you are nearly on the head with your descriptions,I wanted to emphasize to some of you that there are some of us in this field that dont fit the stereotypes that you describe. Much like im sure that all police dont spend the entire watch at Dunkin Donuts or sleeping in their hide spots or meeting up with their little honeys on company time.
    See how that works both ways?

    Seasons Greetings and Happy New Year to all
    ARMED IN CHICAGO
    (Housing North)
    " We came,We Saw,We kicked their asses and when the screaming stopped,the blood dried,the smoke cleared and the dust settled...PEACE WAS RESTORED"

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Glad I'm in Florida. No such infraction as "printing".
    There is no such infraction in NM either, we're an open carry state so it would be interesting to have a printing/failure to conceal statute.... I meant there are some 'over-zealous' guards out there that would take it upon themselves to initiate a stop because someone is printing (just a term I'm using, not a crime..).

    Also cort we're not state actors thereby not bound by probable cause, reasonable suspicion, etc. failure to follow common sense/decency guidelines will end you up in civil court though..... maybe different in IL, but in NM it's "just a civil matter, sir" lol
    Quick to the gun, Sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. - Chris Costa

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