Common Sense, reasonable regulation, etc... - Page 4
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Thread: Common Sense, reasonable regulation, etc...

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    I don't disagree that real training is desirable, I just don't want to put the requirement in the hands of the state. I Colorado I can openly carry a firearm w/ no training, no permit and no fee be if I want to put on a jacket I have to take a class and pay a fee.

    The fact is that there aren't high numbers of legal carriers out there screwing the pooch. If there were you'd see states moving away from shall issue instead of toward permitless. This holds trun in states that require training and those that don't.
    I tend to agree with you that the training need not be conducted by the state. Set a standard, and then let it be handled by private industry. In almost ALL cases, the private sector will do a better job than the Gov't.

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  3. #32
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    Now you're pooh-poohing your own stats! LMAO! That was as easy to predict as night and day! Seriously, LT........you're like a snake that's eating it's own tail.

    And as far as CA's requirement for training, click on the link below and scroll down to "requirements". Also, CA is a "may issue" state. It's not easy to get a permit in any case.

    California Concealed Carry Permit Information | USA Carry
    (Insert random tough-guy quote here)
    "See my gun?? Aren't you impressed?" - Anonymous sheepdog
    The hardware is the same, but the software is vastly different.

  4. #33
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    I think this one's a wrap........with the invaluable help of Treo and NavyLT we have been able to determine that the great majority of states that don't require firearm training have, in fact, a higher instance of firearm related deaths than those states where training is required.

    Thanks guys. Keep up the good work!!
    (Insert random tough-guy quote here)
    "See my gun?? Aren't you impressed?" - Anonymous sheepdog
    The hardware is the same, but the software is vastly different.

  5. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    57.8% of households in Alaska have firearms, whereas only 8.7% of households in Hawaii have firearms. So, we have 49% percentage MORE firearms ownership in Alaska, with NO TRAINING REQUIRED and yet we only have a .015% rise in firearm deaths?
    I wonder how much of the difference can be attributed to the number of people per square mile? There's a LOT of land in Alaska and not so much in Hawaii. Also, I don't really know that much about Alaska's "urban" areas and how they compare to cities in other states. There are a lot of variables to take into consideration.

    Statistics can be made to say whatever suits your argument. Its all in what you leave out, and how you present what is left.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall View Post
    And as far as CA's requirement for training, click on the link below and scroll down to "requirements". Also, CA is a "may issue" state. It's not easy to get a permit in any case.
    Ok, you legitimately corrected me on California Law:

    Penal Code 12050:

    (E) (i) For new license applicants, the course of training may be
    any course acceptable to the licensing authority, shall not exceed 16
    hours, and shall include instruction on at least firearm safety and
    the law regarding the permissible use of a firearm. Notwithstanding
    this clause, the licensing authority may require a community college
    course certified by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and
    Training, up to a maximum of 24 hours, but only if required uniformly
    of all license applicants without exception.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall View Post
    I think this one's a wrap........with the invaluable help of Treo and NavyLT we have been able to determine that the great majority of states that don't require firearm training have, in fact, a higher instance of firearm related deaths than those states where training is required.

    Thanks guys. Keep up the good work!!
    So, genius.... correlate that increase to training only or even in part due to training.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    So, genius.... correlate that increase to training only or even in part due to training.
    You posted the stats LT. You did so in an effort to bolster your argument. You can't take them back. I used them in the exact same manner that you did. You might as well move on to something else instead of continuing to make yourself look worse and worse.

    The bases were loaded in the bottom of the 9th and you pitched one underhanded. Thanks again.
    (Insert random tough-guy quote here)
    "See my gun?? Aren't you impressed?" - Anonymous sheepdog
    The hardware is the same, but the software is vastly different.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall View Post
    You posted the stats LT. You did so in an effort to bolster your argument. You can't take them back. I used them in the exact same manner that you did. You might as well move on to something else instead of continuing to make yourself look worse and worse.

    The bases were loaded in the bottom of the 9th and you pitched one underhanded. Thanks again.
    Like I said, explain to me how 49% more households in Alaska with guns with no training required only raises the death rate by .015% over Hawaii.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  10. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Interesting theory that does not hold water. Let's look at D.C. v. Heller. Did Heller CREATE the Constitutional protection of the right to keep and bear arms in homes in Washington D.C.? NO. Heller did NOT create the protection. Heller APPLIED the protection that ALREADY existed. The US Supreme Court did not change the 2nd Amendment, they applied the 2nd Amendment.

    McDonald v. Chicago.... did McDonald CREATE the Constitutional protection of the right to keep and bear arms in homes outside Washington D.C.? Again, NO. McDonald did NOT create the protection. McDonald APPLIED the protection that ALREADY existed via both the 2nd Amendment and the 14th Amendment. The US Supreme Court did nothing to change the 2nd or 14th Amendments, they merely applied them.

    Neither case CHANGED any rights at all. What both cases did was beat down the government regulation that infringed upon the protection ALREADY offered since the day the 2nd Amendment was ratified. And that's why this argument that carrying a firearm in public for self protection is not a Constitutionally protected right is false. The 2nd Amendment has no wording in it about "in one's home" does it?

    The right is ALREADY Constitutionally protected.... the problem is government's infringement upon that right, which hopefully will be beat down, just like Heller and McDonald did.

    The SCOTUS is the final arbiter of the meaning of the Constitution. As of today, the SCOTUS has held that the 2nd amendment protects the rights of individuals to own firearms of common usage for home self-defense. Nothing more.

    Your wish that it was more doesn't change what it is.

    So when we discuss whether training requirements or any other limitations on firearm ownership is appropriate, we must do so in the context of what is rather than what we might wishy things to be.

    Right now, ownership of a firearm beyond that specified for by the SCOTUS is a privilege whether you like it or not. Should that privilege be restricted by required training of some sort is not a question that can be answered by claiming the privilege can't be restricted because it is a secured individual right. It presently isn't.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    The SCOTUS is the final arbiter of the meaning of the Constitution. As of today, the SCOTUS has held that the 2nd amendment protects the rights of individuals to own firearms of common usage for home self-defense. Nothing more.

    Your wish that it was more doesn't change what it is.

    So when we discuss whether training requirements or any other limitations on firearm ownership is appropriate, we must do so in the context of what is rather than what we might wishy things to be.

    Right now, ownership of a firearm beyond that specified for by the SCOTUS is a privilege whether you like it or not. Should that privilege be restricted by required training of some sort is not a question that can be answered by claiming the privilege can't be restricted because it is a secured individual right. It presently isn't.
    And that's where you and I disagree. You seem to think that rights only exist if some government authority says they exist or if the government honors those rights. I am glad the founding fathers didn't feel the same way as you, otherwise we would still be under British rule. The founding fathers recognized that certain rights exist whether or not the government recognizes those rights or honors those rights.

    If the government ever does come knocking on your door to confiscate your guns, are you just going to hand them over to the nice government official and say, "Well, dang, I sure wish I had the right to keep this...?"
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

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