Should CCW permits be restricted to citizens? - Page 14
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Thread: Should CCW permits be restricted to citizens?

  1. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    So much for your oath to support and defend the Constitution of the US, eh? I don't see permits, background checks and/or training mentioned in the 2nd Amendment. Maybe I am reading an outdated version?
    And you will not see permits, background checks and/or training in the Second Amendment, but as long as we have big brother e.g., BATF, FBI, etc, you will have the permits, background checks and/or training. Unfortunately you and I served to protect not only our rights, but how they are enforced. We may not like it, and we may try to fight it, but we will lose every time, unless you live in Arizona :) the friendliest gun state in the union.
    The Second Amendment is not about Hunting!!
    When the Government is afraid of of it's People, This LIBERTY
    When the People are afraid of the government, That is TYRANNY

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  3. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by jg1967 View Post
    You need not worry about the background checks since they are US background only ... but as a legal alien you have been checked out more thoroughly than you have ever been in your entire life before you came in.
    If we lived in a perfect world, this would be an accurate statement, but we do not. In fact I see this here in Arizona with a few legal aliens when arrested to be found they do not have the perfect background that was first stated. Sheriff Joe's crime sweeps include one and all.
    The Second Amendment is not about Hunting!!
    When the Government is afraid of of it's People, This LIBERTY
    When the People are afraid of the government, That is TYRANNY

  4. Quote Originally Posted by SFC View Post
    And you will not see permits, background checks and/or training in the Second Amendment, but as long as we have big brother e.g., BATF, FBI, etc, you will have the permits, background checks and/or training. Unfortunately you and I served to protect not only our rights, but how they are enforced. We may not like it, and we may try to fight it, but we will lose every time, unless you live in Arizona :) the friendliest gun state in the union.
    In post #128 it seems as if you support the idea of permits, background checks and training being required to carry a firearm. It seems as if you support the idea of the government deciding who gets to carry a firearm and who doesn't.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  5. #134
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    Thumbs down Lots of assumptions there, Buford.....

    Quote Originally Posted by bufordtpisser View Post
    That is just our interpretation. Other peoples and other countries have their own interpretations. Who do we as one of the newest countries in the world think that we are to force our beliefs and our interpretations on the rest of the world.
    Um, I believe that we are the United States of America, the most successful experiment in liberty in recorded history.

    Quote Originally Posted by bufordtpisser View Post
    We do not have the right to usurp the rights of others or to force what we see as our rights on others. The Constitution of the United States of America is by and for the people of the United States of America. Be very careful of what you ask for when it concerns rights. I can almost guarantee you that if there is ever a constitution that pertained to all of the people in the world that the right to keep and bear arms will not be a part of it.
    First, I never suggested that we force anybody to do anything. The way we interpret our documents is our business. You purport that the Constitution is by and for Americans only. I would point to an even earlier text, on whose foundation the Constitution rests: The Declaration of Independence.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    Again, this is the texts which empowers our Bill of Rights. You will notice that it says "all men". That means everyone. To deny this would be to use the same logic that the anti gunners employ when attempting to parse the second amendment.


    Quote Originally Posted by bufordtpisser View Post
    Good thing is that if people in other countries no longer want to be repressed by their repressive governments, they can leave, come here legally and then be afforded the same rights and protection of the Constitution of the United States of America as we have.

    The people of England DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. And the reason that they do not is because they live in England and are subject to the Laws and Rules of England. I will guarantee you that if someone in England gets caught keeping and bearing arms, the Constitution of The United States of America will not protect them even if they are an American citizen. For the most part the Constitution of The United States of America only protects people who are under the direct jurisdiction of or in the United States of America. Don't believe me, go to Canada, Mexico or even England and get caught keeping and bearing arms. Let me know how that works out for you.
    Look, Buford, I am not an idiot. I realize that our laws give no legal protection to those in other countries, be they American citizens or native citizens of that land. What the Constitution DOES give, however, is really important; it gives Hope. The direction that we have chosen, the path of liberty that we have followed, has been a beacon for country after country to follow. Germany, Iceland, India, Poland; all have looked toward our system when developing their own. Again, we should recognize those rights for all, and support those who try to emulate our success. Another "natural right" is further defined in our Declaration of Independence, and that would directly address those poor bastards in England. See if this rings a bell:

    That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

    I say we support those victims of tyranny, in word and deed, and show by example why our blessed experiment is the best path to personal liberty (provided we have not shed it by then).

    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

  6. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by SFC View Post
    If we lived in a perfect world, this would be an accurate statement, but we do not. In fact I see this here in Arizona with a few legal aliens when arrested to be found they do not have the perfect background that was first stated. Sheriff Joe's crime sweeps include one and all.
    Are you sure we aqe talking legal aliens here? All background check can be fudged in some form or manner - I just wanted to point out that in order to get a greencard you have to jump thru 10 times more hoops than to get a CCW permit.

  7. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by jg1967 View Post
    Legal Aliens are not Illegal Aliens.
    And I have no issues with legal aliens. Come here legally and be afforded the protections of the Constitution of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

  8. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    True. The opinion in WONG WING v. U S, 163 U.S. 228 (1896) does not say that illegal aliens have these same protections. However, the opinion in Plyler v. Doe (No. 80-1538) does:
    Plyler v. Doe



    Now, at the time of Pyler v. Doe, the 2nd Amendment had not yet been incorporated to the states via the 14th Amendment. McDonald v. Chicago changed that. In McDonal V. Chicago the Supreme Court ruled that the 2nd Amendment was included in the protections of the 14th Amendment at the state level.




    Absolutely true. Unfortunately there are people, some on this forum, who are unable to grasp this concept.

    Don't get me wrong... I may not personally agree with illegal aliens being afforded equal rights with those in this country who are here legally. I don't like paying for illegal aliens to be on welfare or receive public education or public health care. Unfortunately the US Supreme Court disagrees with my personal feelings.
    And I believe that if the 2nd had been incorporated into the states at that time that the decision would have been rendered differently.

    It is my opinion that carry permits (because we are forced to get them) should be restricted to legals in this country, The original question was whether or not they should be restricted to citizens. I am entitled to my opinion irregardless of or contrary to what the Supreme Court has decided in their politically motivated and incorrect decision.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by bufordtpisser View Post
    It is my opinion that carry permits (because we are forced to get them) should be restricted to legals in this country, The original question was whether or not they should be restricted to citizens. I am entitled to my opinion irregardless of or contrary to what the Supreme Court has decided in their politically motivated and incorrect decision.
    I agree with you. My personal belief is that illegal aliens should not be afforded any benefits from state or Federal government. No driver's licenses. No public education. No public health care. However, there are people on this forum (not you, obviously) who refuse to grasp the concept that a person can come to this country via legal means, permanently reside here, pay taxes here, work here, contribute to the economy, do volunteer work, help people, serve in the US Military and yet not have a piece of paper or birth place that says they are a citizen. Some people on this forum feel that those legal alien residents who have jumped through many more hoops and put forth much more effort to be in this country legally than any natural born citizen has should be denied basic rights because they don't have a particular piece of paper or a particular place of birth.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  10. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    In post #128 it seems as if you support the idea of permits, background checks and training being required to carry a firearm. It seems as if you support the idea of the government deciding who gets to carry a firearm and who doesn't.
    Hell No! I do not support anything by the government, especially anything referring to gun control, if this was the case I would of left Arizona where no permits are needed. I love the freedom of owning a firearm, I only wish that the so called background check were not even a factor in purchasing a firearm.

    When working for the DoD in kalifornia, I attended meetings with the likes of Feinstein, Boxer, and other anti-gun politicians challenging them to the fact why they could carry concealed and us tax payers could not. I was in there meeting when the decision that the military style firearms could not be purchased in the PRK, I came unglued right there calling them communist taking our freedoms away as this left us basically shotguns that were that of 28" barrels. Yesterday I purchased a Springfield XD 9 mm that stated on the label "NOT LEGAL IN KALIFORNIA"

    I love my guns/firearms/weapons and refuse to give up my right to owning whatever I want to buy to include automatics. When I purchased my firearm yesterday I was next in line watching a gentleman buying 18 firearms as lives down toward the border, about 200 miles away, one was a rifle, a 50 caliber with a high powered scope and 25 boxes of ammo. I shook his hand and said do you not just love living here in Arizona.

    Sorry if I mislead anyone on this fact, but what I was trying to point out was we live in a day of fear that something may happen and not a day of support for the gun owner as we have been the ones keeping the enemy at bay for over 240 years.

    I love my firearms and I love living in Arizona
    The Second Amendment is not about Hunting!!
    When the Government is afraid of of it's People, This LIBERTY
    When the People are afraid of the government, That is TYRANNY

  11. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by jg1967 View Post
    Are you sure we aqe talking legal aliens here? All background check can be fudged in some form or manner - I just wanted to point out that in order to get a green card you have to jump thru 10 times more hoops than to get a CCW permit.
    JG point taken, all I can refer to is in the news when stated legal alien from some country being deported because they lied on the their paperwork, the countries they come from are either not as up to date as the US in keeping track of all their own people and their criminal records; Or like you mentioned their country may have fudged on their records to obtain visas or green cards. Remember 911 these so called legals were here on visas and some of them were on the so called FBI watch list, but were never followed up with once they were here.

    I'm sorry, but I will have to admit after working both in the Army and DoD I do not trust our FBI or the legal aliens that come to our country. Although do not take this wrong, I have friends from other countries here legally with green cards or work/education visas that are very honest, at least when we are together. None of them even want to own a firearm but they do not care if we do as they understand it is our right to do so. Although there is that % of the legal immigrants that are not so up front and honest.

    I do not stereo type or try not to, just because they wear a Turban does not mean they are a terrorist. In fact when working for the DoD back in my home office one day I had my ID in my pocket. A lady approached me asking where my ID was, and I pulled it out of my pocket to show her. She replied I looked like a terrorist, I asked just what in hell does a terrorist look like, of course with a dark tan and beard and mustache did not help my cause.

    But again Point Taken
    The Second Amendment is not about Hunting!!
    When the Government is afraid of of it's People, This LIBERTY
    When the People are afraid of the government, That is TYRANNY

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