The use of deadly force with your weapon - Page 3
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Thread: The use of deadly force with your weapon

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Houston Metro Area, Texas
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    3,004
    What you receive here is advice, some good, some bad, some BS, talk with an attorney that is versed in 2nd amendment and shooting or enjoy big leroy in prison.

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  3. #22
    JSDinTexas Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mustang View Post
    NOT a good idea. Statements like this, are exactly what Treo was talking about, and are exactly why you need to consult with an actual attorney (IANL) in real life, well versed in the laws and precedents of your state and municipality.

    You have fifth amendment rights. Police and prosecutors cannot use your exercising your fifth amendment rights as a negative in court. Juries are instructed NOT to view taking the fitfh as an indication of guilt or evasion. To do so would be to infer answers that may or may not be true.

    On the other hand, claiming a medical emergency, if untrue, DOES paint you in a negative light. You were willing to lie to a police officer, what else were you willing to lie about? ONE willful lie and your entire statement/story can be called into question. This is the sort of thing that can result in prosecution rather than no charges filed.

    Answer simple questions whose answers are obvious from direct observation. How many people are injured, anyone you saw fleeing the scene, your physical description. A statement that you were in fear for your life and shot to stop the threat is likely ok. Leave out specifics, you are going to want to tell your story. Resist that temptation.
    Once you have answered the obvious questions. (consult with your attorney to find out which ones are OK) say this:


    I intend to fully cooperate with your investigation but I do not wish to make any further statements until I have consulted with my attorney
    I site an instructor in offering this, and I did not intend that anyone lie about anything - in fact, people that kill another in a violent exchange do have heart palpitations, need to throw up or do, are disoriented, and so on. And in every case, the adrenalin is flooding the system even after the event: peripheral vision returns quickly, but heart rate and blood pressure may be elevated for an hour or sometimes more. Even LEOs go through this; it is not just civilians. The purpose in asking to be checked out by EMS is to avoid immediate questioning until the person is reasonably calm and reoriented, and then I start to agree with you - no answers beyond name, rank, serial number until a lawyer is present, and answering simple questions maybe.
    And I will speak from personal experience - I hunt deer and I have never been able to control anything physiological except breathing as I pull the trigger; and after, I find my heart beating furiously, trouble attempting to concentrate on what's next like following the animal to see where it goes or drops, reloading another bolt in the crossbow for a second shot if needed, and this lasts for a moment or two. And this is a deer, not a person.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by jsdinTexas View Post
    I site an instructor in offering this, and I did not intend that anyone lie about anything - in fact, people that kill another in a violent exchange do have heart palpitations, need to throw up or do, are disoriented, and so on. And in every case, the adrenalin is flooding the system even after the event: peripheral vision returns quickly, but heart rate and blood pressure may be elevated for an hour or sometimes more. Even LEOs go through this; it is not just civilians. The purpose in asking to be checked out by EMS is to avoid immediate questioning until the person is reasonably calm and reoriented, and then I start to agree with you - no answers beyond name, rank, serial number until a lawyer is present, and answering simple questions maybe.
    The purpose of speaking with EMS is to ensure your physical and psychiatric well being. You are correct that situations of high stress can trigger any number of health problems from pure anxiety related symptoms to stroke and everything in between. Look up Takotsubo cardiomyopathy. It is a rare heart condition that is a result of high stress.

    Seeking medical care is to be distinguished from invoking your fifth amendment rights. One of the many reasons for the fifth amendment is to allow you time to collect yourself and be able to contact counsel prior to questioning or giving a statement. In other words you do not need to ask to be seen by EMS to avoid questioning. You already have that right.

    To an otherwise law abiding citizen, involvement in a self defense shooting is quite traumatic. There is a deep psychological need to be told that you did the right thing. This leads to an urge to tell your story. Police know this, police use this to coerce statements prior to victims receiving counsel. The advice from that instructor was likely aimed at curbing this psychological implulse rather than simply providing an excuse to avoid questions.

    I understand your point of view and it is valid. However following that advice to the letter would seem to involve a false stament which is why I reacted the way I did. I did not state that you should not seek out medical care. I merely meant to point out that you do not need an excuse to avoid questions. The fifth amendment already gives you that right.

  5. #24
    JSDinTexas Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mustang View Post
    The purpose of speaking with EMS is to ensure your physical and psychiatric well being. You are correct that situations of high stress can trigger any number of health problems from pure anxiety related symptoms to stroke and everything in between. Look up Takotsubo cardiomyopathy. It is a rare heart condition that is a result of high stress.

    Seeking medical care is to be distinguished from invoking your fifth amendment rights. One of the many reasons for the fifth amendment is to allow you time to collect yourself and be able to contact counsel prior to questioning or giving a statement. In other words you do not need to ask to be seen by EMS to avoid questioning. You already have that right.

    To an otherwise law abiding citizen, involvement in a self defense shooting is quite traumatic. There is a deep psychological need to be told that you did the right thing. This leads to an urge to tell your story. Police know this, police use this to coerce statements prior to victims receiving counsel. The advice from that instructor was likely aimed at curbing this psychological implulse rather than simply providing an excuse to avoid questions.

    I understand your point of view and it is valid. However following that advice to the letter would seem to involve a false stament which is why I reacted the way I did. I did not state that you should not seek out medical care. I merely meant to point out that you do not need an excuse to avoid questions. The fifth amendment already gives you that right.
    So I believe we are in agreement. I guess my resistance issues from using the 5th as it may appear uncooperative, and I know that usually doesn't go down well.
    Maybe we should, based on the event, choose all the above. In other words, basically keep quiet, get to a lawyer asap and immediately begin to concentrate on recovering, both physically and mentally, from the event.
    Good posts Doc.

  6. #25
    Please note that you can only invoke your 5th amendment rights once you are arrested. Pre-arrest silence can be noted by the police and then used against you. "He remained silent because he was hiding something."

    According to Kevin Jamison (Defense Attorney) when you call 911 you say three things:

    1. He tried to kill me
    2. I was never so scared in my life
    3. Send an ambulance (and give the address where to send it)

    When the 911 operator asks additional questions you repeat the above three phrases.

    When the police arrive, cooperate but do not give a statement except to point out where the evidence is, that he/she tried to kill me, and, I was never so scared in my life.

    If you defecate upon yourself, have the police make note of that fact in their report.

    How to find out if you are under arrest. Let the officers know that you are under stress and want to see your chiropractor and try to leave. If you are detained (and you probably will be), you are then under arrest and it is at this point that you invoke your 5th Amendment right to silence.

    The above information is from Kevin Jamison/Tim Oliver's "Missouri Concealed Carry and Self-Defense Law" DVD.

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Sandpoint, Idaho
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    I might throw up just a little :/

    But seriously, we talked about this in the "Never Talk to the Police" video thread, and I'm still unclear as to whether one should make like a clam immediately, or only if they are placed under arrest.

    The overhwelming and obvious issue is that ANYTHING you say CAN and WILL be used against you.

    But at what point?

  8. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by localgirl View Post
    I might throw up just a little :/

    But seriously, we talked about this in the "Never Talk to the Police" video thread, and I'm still unclear as to whether one should make like a clam immediately, or only if they are placed under arrest.

    The overhwelming and obvious issue is that ANYTHING you say CAN and WILL be used against you.

    But at what point?
    Prior to arrest you say only three things:

    1. He tried to kill me
    2. I was never so scared in my life
    3. There is the evidence (BG, weapon, witnesses, personal injuries)

    After arrest you invoke your 5th Amendment right to silence.

  9. #28
    JSDinTexas Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by RJT CCW View Post
    Prior to arrest you say only three things:

    1. He tried to kill me
    2. I was never so scared in my life
    3. There is the evidence (BG, weapon, witnesses, personal injuries)



    After arrest you invoke your 5th Amendment right to silence.
    I don't want to be picky but I might do it this way:
    1. He tried to kill me
    2. I was in fear for my life
    3. There is the evidence
    Either way is probably fine, but I felt reading #2 that it may be interpreted that being scared created a panic that created shooting the BG. This is just my preference, and really what you said or anything similar would probably work.

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Keysville Va.
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    304
    I agree with everything up to this point but it may be because I spent over 25 years in Law Enforcement and over 20 years as a SWAT team member but the FIRST thing I do is RELOAD then follow the other advice.
    Bill

  11. A little info doesn't hurt.

    Your basic street cop will want thegeneral version of what happened. Be prepaired ahead of time to give some basic non-specific information. When the detectives arive, ask for a lawyer. I didnt have the option in 1982. I shot a guy in the line of duty and was expected to give a statement. Turns out it didn't hurt me a bit. I ended up in criminal court with charges over political reasons and money. Every situation will be different, so use good judgement just like you did when you made the desicion to shoot. Rod

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