"Israeli Carry" is for people who DON'T know what they are doing
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Thread: "Israeli Carry" is for people who DON'T know what they are doing

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    "Israeli Carry" is for people who DON'T know what they are doing

    Since the Israelis are reflexively brought up every time someone mentions carrying with an empty chamber, maybe we should look at why they carry (or carried) with an empty chamber.

    When the Israeli Defense Force was orginally formed back in the 40s, they were armed with whatever weapons they, as a nation, could quickly acquire. This meant that their pistols were a mish-mash of different designs. Some single action, some double action, some with safeties, some without. Many were not drop safe. Many did not have holsters.

    They needed one simple method to train a large number of people, many of them inexpereinced in the use of arms, regardless of what weapon they had. The result was to carry with the chamber empty and rack on the draw. This method:

    1) works regardless of the gun's design (SA, DA, safety, no safety)
    2) prevents a non-drop-safe gun from going off if dropped (a real possibility when you just stick it in your waistband because you don't have a holster)
    3) avoids the possibility of someone not accustomed to a safety sticking a loaded, cocked, and unlocked single action into their waistband

    It is important to note that this method IS A COMPROMISE.

    There is no tactical advantage to be gained from carrying this way. In fact there is a tactical disadvantage, because it requires both hands. With a modern firearm, there is no safety advantage to be gained from carrying chamber empty, either. (One possible exception to this is someone trying to shoot you with your own gun, but if you are planning your carry method based on someone stealing your concealed gun from you before you can react, perhaps you should reconsider carrying a gun.)

    If you need to use a gun in self defense, you're already behind the curve because:
    A) You didn't see the situation coming in time to avoid it.
    B) You weren't able to find and take an escape from the situation once it started.
    C) You weren't able to control or de-escalate the situation before a gun became your only option.
    D) You need a gun RIGHT NOW.
    E) Your gun is still in it's holster (because you don't draw before you need it, right?)

    Why put yourself at a further disadvantage by having that holstered gun unloaded as well?

    You are not a member of the IDF. You are not mandated to carry your gun in a less-than-optimal manner. Why would you choose to handicap yourself this way? Why would you carry in a manner that may require more hands than you'll have available? That takes more time to deploy? That precludes the ability to fire from retention? That requires putting the gun out there in a place that's bad for retention?

    The Israelis don't carry chamber empty becasue it's tacti-cool. It was a compromise that gained a bit of needed safety at the cost of tactical advantage. Today, now that they have standardized, modern pistols, many Israelis (like SWAT and special forces units) do carry with a loaded chamber.


    Just carry with one in the pipe, already.
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

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  3. #2
    Well said.

  4. #3
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    To me people who carry empty chamber are still in the mind set that guns fire by themselves or they cant handle a firearm with out having their finger on the trigger. I've jumped out of trucks chasing down running hogs with a pistol on my hip and a rifle in my hand. Both had rounds in the chamber with safety off and they dont suddenly fire in the heat of the moment. The rifles also ride around in the truck for a whole weekend and dont suddenly fire off a round. Some folks are just uneasy around firearms and probably shouldn't have them.

  5. #4
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    For those folks who do not like guns in the hands of civilians, move to CA or IL, take a box of chalk with your to help LEO draw your outline.

  6. #5
    I used to carry that way. Alwayse figured having the gun was a plus in the first place.

    I blew out my shoulder, now a 9 year old can whoop that arm. I carry locked, cocked, and ready to go now.

  7. #6
    Very good points made here!

    -Doc

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare45 View Post
    For those folks who do not like guns in the hands of civilians, move to CA or IL, take a box of chalk with your to help LEO draw your outline.
    Nice!

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by walther380 View Post
    To me people who carry empty chamber are still in the mind set that guns fire by themselves or they cant handle a firearm with out having their finger on the trigger. <snipped for brevity...> Some folks are just uneasy around firearms and probably shouldn't have them.
    Y'er right dude! I used to be one. I'm a bit too old for Israeli carry, but it will be nice to be able to learn the technique and live to tell the tale...
    "Don't let the door hit ya where the dawg shudda bit ya!"
    G'day and Glock
    GATEWAY SWIFT WING ST. LOUIS

  10. I'm not going to tell folks not to carry unchambered. The reality is that some are not comfortable doing so and in some States you simply cannot carry chambered. I'm merely going to illustrate that the statistics say it's inherently dangerous to our own personal safety.

    The Tueller drill trumps the Israeli carry 100% of the time. No unchambered carry is capable of responding to a threat at 21 feet without that threat having been perceived beyond 21 feet. It's a factual impossibility and the Israeli's know it to be true. Run the numbers and there's simply no way to beat it at 21 feet and the statistics say 75% of attacks will occur at 21 feet or closer.

    A human being can cover 21 feet in 3 seconds. (this is called the Reactionary Gap for good reason, see below)
    Perceive the threat - 1 to 2 seconds
    Analyze that the threat is genuine - 1/2 second to 1 second
    Formulate a response - 1/2 second to 1 second
    Initiate that response - 3 seconds or more with Israeli unchambered carry
    IC - retrieve your firearm, draw your firearm, chamber your firearm, present firearm to target, judge if you're on target, take your shot.

    This illustrates that if the statistics hold true, and they have for roughly 20 years including the 2010 DOJ Violent Encounters manual, then at 21 feet if you're carrying unchambered or live in a state that requires you carry unchambered you stand a 100% chance of being a victim if a threat is 21 feet or closer. That is unless that threat makes a mistake to give you an opportunity to chamber.

    Example: If I'm an attacker at 21 feet and you make the mistake of unholstering while I'm closing in then try to chamber that firearm you're guaranteeing that I will become deadly violent as you've just shown me your weakness and I can now exploit it to prevent you from being able to respond with deadly force.

    To reinforce this issue, here's the 1980's video on the matter. At 1:17 in, you'll see the narrator demonstrating the technique. Note a few things - He is not reacting to a threat, it takes 2 full seconds for a TRAINED individual to unholster/chamber/present, and if he extends out in a 21 foot closing target the threat would be closer to him than the muzzle of his own firearm. Get out to 2:35 in the video where it's simulated reaction and it's 4 full seconds to get a shot off by a TRAINED individual. Factor the Tueller drill in and both could have been neutralized by just one assailant in that specific scenario.



    To give you an idea about just how fast 21 feet can be covered I've included a charging target video that I love to direct new competition shooters to. Keep in mind that this is a competition shooter who has the advantage of being able to see the scenario ahead of time, trained, and is reacting to a audible tone. It is not representative of real-world! Want to prove it to yourself? Turn your volume completely off and go off the movement of the target, I suggest using an inert firearm or airsoft. Remember, you already have the advantage of knowing the threat is present and will be coming at you, so again it won't be representative of real-world.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eZKd2LW9zQ

  11. #10
    I carry in condition 1, If I do need my weapon, I want it in a hurry im sure. No point wasting time trying to rack the slide, it wastes a precious second or whatever, especially when every moment counts.

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