Canton, OH Stop Revisited w/ Police Trainer - Page 5
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Thread: Canton, OH Stop Revisited w/ Police Trainer

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TekGreg View Post
    Well, I was only comparing people that didn't do their jobs and were fire-able - to me, these are all failures. But to be fair, the comparison wouldn't truly be compete unless we placed guns in the hands of everyone in corporate America and allowed them the ability to enforce, say, a balance sheet, by pulling a gun and taking someone to jail! It's a ridiculous premise, I know, but I bet we would find a lot more "bona fide lunatics," as you put it.
    Thus the anti-gun position that when you put a gun in someone's hand they become a lunatic? That's been proven untrue repeatedly.

    I support the police 100%. But when ANYONE steps that far over the line it must end.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

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  3. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by TekGreg View Post
    As a benefit to the firearms forum community, I took it upon myself to contact a police officer I know regarding the Canton, OH CCW stop. He is a training officer for regular officers and SWAT for over a dozen years, and also currently teaches the CCW class in Ohio. He gave me permission to quote him on his response when I told him I wished to get an official answer back to the readers of the forum.

    First off, my officer's response about the Canton, OH officer's behavior: "He's an a$$hole. However, law enforcement has a failure rate of 2-3% (officers like the one in the video) and corporate America has a failure rate of 25%, so police recruiting is doing about 10 times better than the business average. The problem is we hire humans, and there will always be some failures that slip through all the screening that we do. The good news is that they will eventually do something like the officer in the video and be fired for it."

    Next, as far as immediate notification of CCW: "The first words out of your mouth should be "I have a CCW" as you hand BOTH your CCW and your license to the officer. Keep your CCW with your license so you can draw them as one and hand them with the CCW on TOP. Do not start with, 'Officer' or 'Hello' as this gives a chance for the officer to interrupt you. If you are still told to shut up, you should keep your license and CCW held out towards the officer and comply with his instructions. You can only do the best you can under the circumstances."

    Final notes from my officer: "I hope everyone will remember that this is a training problem with the officers and 97-98% of the time will NOT happen! I am adding this video to my officer training set as an example of how not to handle a CCW stop and the perfect way to get fired. If you are unlucky enough to be stopped by someone like this officer, do exactly what the driver in the video did - stay cool, agree with the officer, follow his commands, and settle it the next day with attorneys and his superiors."

    On my phone call to my officer, he said that the communication center in Ohio should always inform the officer that the tag they are pulling over is attached to a person who has a CCW, so in Ohio, the officer should already know. But this doesn't relieve your duty to inform. When you inform, you basically show the officer that you know the law and intend to comply, which means you are law-abiding and are probably not going to pull the weapon on him. It's a courtesy for the safety of the officer. However, in my officer's own words: "We are trained police officers. We are supposed to treat every stop as if the driver and passengers are armed. It should not surprise an officer that you are carrying and he definitely shouldn't over-react like the officer in the video."

    I hope this clarifies it for some people and puts some answers to the grey areas. If you have any questions that still exist, especially for Ohio CCW carriers, post them in response to this and I'll pass them along to my training officer for his comment.
    Great advice, and nice to get a LEO's perspective! Thanks!

    I think the part of not starting with "Officer, ..." or "Hello, ... " and simply blurting out "I have a CCW" FIRST is the best advice as I personally would have started out in conversation mode just out of habit.

  4. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by TekGreg View Post
    DesertEagle, you're absolutely correct! Emotions always come into play. My wife and I literally just got done watching a video on TruTV (It was one of the shows that aires dashboard cams from police cars) where a trooper pulled a guy over for a speeding ticket. After issuing the ticket, The driver went completely ballistic on the officer, screaming, cussing, flailing at him in his vehicle, tore the ticket up and threw it at the officer. The officer remained completely unemotional in the face of this barrage of insults, which clearly qualified as Assault on a Peace Officer, and then he told the driver he needed to pick up the pieces of ticket or he would be cited for littering. The driver got out and kept up the tirade while picking up the pieces, screaming and cussing at the top of his lungs while the officer just stood there. The driver got back in his car and tore off down the road while the officer simply watched him and offered a "Bye" as he disappeared. The officer was the epitome of calm and collected. He had absorbed all of the driver's abuse without blinking an eye, but these types of videos don't really entertain the public because it's not the officer AGAINST a civilian, it's a civilian abusing an officer, which we don't like to acknowledge happens every single day.

    Something you said rings true, though, DesertEagle. A psychology teacher of mine told a class one time that we make choices emotionally and then justify them logically. What this means in this case is that a lot of people will decide whether or not they are going to like law enforcement or not (emotional decision) and then they will start gathering evidence to only support their decision - only watch the bad police videos if they hate police, etc. It's obvious I'm an LEO supporter, but I embrace problems like this because I believe they happen and they need to be dealt with. I think if we look fairly at both sides of the issue, we will see LEO's as humans and maybe find better ways to deal with them in real life situations.
    Unfortunately, this is a bad example of a LEO encounter. What most people do not know about this encounter, is what happened prior to the citizen going ballistic. This state trooper had encounter(s) with this citizen before, and knew he could get the citizen to act this way as the citizen is known to have anger management problems. Prior to turning on the dash cam, the state trooper was acting much different and got the citizen stressed already. The state trooper lost his job over this incident.

  5. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by PaxMentis View Post
    CCW Badges are pretty much a running joke here, since "we don' need no stinking badges"...

    G50 will put in a mention whenever there is a place into which one can possibly be squeezed...
    It could be worse, we have bighousedoc spamming about how, "There is no such thing as medical marijuana, because I said so. All those cancer, glaucoma, and fibromyalgia patients are just faking it."

  6. Quote Originally Posted by TekGreg View Post
    Father, the good thing to remember is that, just like officer Canton, OH, those evil 1-3% can only do that ONCE if we do what we're supposed to do. As my officer said, they WILL be weeded out and fired, but we have to turn them in when these things happen. If we help to enforce the law on BOTH sides, the public benefits every time.
    Well, let's just see if this Canton cop does indeed get fired. Heck, last I heard he was not even being investigated for what look to me as clearly criminal acts on his part.

    And I'd bet my bottom dollar that this guy has already done things that would have raised all kinds of red flags. This incident didn't come out of nowhere.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by joemendoza View Post
    Well, let's just see if this Canton cop does indeed get fired. Heck, last I heard he was not even being investigated for what look to me as clearly criminal acts on his part.

    And I'd bet my bottom dollar that this guy has already done things that would have raised all kinds of red flags. This incident didn't come out of nowhere.
    The current story from the city is that he's the subject of an IAD investigation.

    It sounds like you haven't seen the SECOND video where he exhibits ALL of the same behaviors on display in the first. I'd be VERY surprised if those are the ONLY two videos of him acting out like Dennis Hopper in "Blue Velvet".

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    The current story from the city is that he's the subject of an IAD investigation.

    It sounds like you haven't seen the SECOND video where he exhibits ALL of the same behaviors on display in the first. I'd be VERY surprised if those are the ONLY two videos of him acting out like Dennis Hopper in "Blue Velvet".
    No, I haven't seen it. Good. Looks like he will get his comeuppance! But ... a IAD investigation is not the same as a criminal investigation by the DA. If one of us acted like that, we'd be charged with a crime. Even if we don't act like that, we would be charged, as was the innocent citizen in this video. Maybe in this case the criminal waits until after the IAD investigation.

    At any rate, the end result if I were king would be that this officer would be allowed nowhere near a badge for the rest of his life, and I'd say nowhere near a carry permit either. Just think -- would any of us have ever gotten or kept a CCL if the state board had seen us acting like this guy did?

  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by joemendoza View Post
    No, I haven't seen it. Good. Looks like he will get his comeuppance! But ... a IAD investigation is not the same as a criminal investigation by the DA. If one of us acted like that, we'd be charged with a crime. Even if we don't act like that, we would be charged, as was the innocent citizen in this video. Maybe in this case the criminal waits until after the IAD investigation.
    All indications are that the prosecutor is playing hard ball to try to force a plea deal to keep the city from getting sued. They've already made that ludicrous "offer" and had the victim and his attorney laugh in their faces. They're going to drag this out until a settlement will be brutal, or they lose their behinds in a civil judgment. The city's in a no-win situation, like the Japanese on Okinawa. The only question is when they make the final "Banzai" charge into the guns of the waiting Shermans.

  10. I'll say it once again, opinions we have towards the police are based on a lot more than the actual police officers themselves.
    This is a good point, Deserteagle. Anecdotes do get passed around, and bad tales travel further than good ones. So I'll concede there's more forming people's opinions than just individual experience. For example, my own experience with a Skagit County Deputy promising to call me right back regarding a theft report, then calling two weeks later to ask if I'd worked things out with the thief (he knew her) might color my opinion. But so would my father's experience with a different Deputy stomping all over the tracks at the scene when he reported a theft of cedar logs and contents of a cabin, while telling him there was nothing they could do - followed by getting a different Deputy each time he called, telling him pretty much the same. He called my oldest son, who made a call of his own, then told him who did the theft, who was the leader and where the stolen cedar was at that moment - that information, given to the Sheriff's Dept. resulted in .. NOTHING -- UNTIL Dad got lucky and found a Deputy who had a hard-on for the ringleader. All of that is not MY experience, but I admit it colors my opinion. It is shared experience. Still, I'm the first to opine that most county Sheriff's Departments have a higher percentage of true Peace Officers than most other agencies.

    You mention thousands and thousands of other police encounters. Good. Let's talk about MOST of the police encounters for MOST people: For most people, it's an encounter with a Revenue Collector (traffic cop) and his radar gun. Occasionally, it maybe be a theft report, that generally does not have a beneficial outcome (often, the reporting citizen is grilled almost as if he was the suspect). But most police enounters do not happen for the benefit of the citizen having the encounter, and a very high percentage of them involve the forcible taking of money they need to feed, clothe and house their families.

    It does my heart good, on the rare occasions that I see a Trooper helping a lady with a flat tire. A friend is a better than typical Trooper. His got his ***** royally chewed by his Sergeant because, though he made more stops than others in his unit, he was not writing tickets to (taking money from) more than 75% of the people stopped. He was pretty pointedly reminded that that's why he's out there.

    The two missions of the Police have not changed since the time of the Sheriff of Nottingham: Primary is forcible transfer of assets from the productive class to the ruling class. Secondary is keeping the peasants in line. Many departments still display the motto "To Serve And Protect," but a large body of case law (all the way to SCOTUS) makes it clear that the police have no duty to protect. You're protection is YOUR responsibility. Period. Many of today's officers are not really allowed to be Peace Officers. That's not of primary importance to the ruling class; and the police, after all, are the tools of the ruling class they serve.

    On average, the majority of the Revenue Collectors I've encountered have been polite and professional. Most of them. And they were taking my money; that's their job.

    I still remember being an idealistic 18 year old who wanted to be a cop, a good guy, help the good people, put away the bad guys. Funny how a few decades of societal observation can lead to disillusionment. I'm glad I never did it. My wife did it for a while, and she has the scars. She was lucky, but what she saw within the department finally made her leave.

    Face it, much of the ruling class wants, if not Officer Harless, at least a force that intimidates the peasants sufficiently that they won't ever argue, no matter what. Police are caught in the middle; they are not the cause of the problem, just the target most visible to most observers.

    In the Canton Ohio case, I'll hazard a prediction: If this gets enough publicity, the story has enough "legs," Harless will be fired -- and a very short time later, will be working for another department. Please tell me I'm wrong.
    “The police of a State should never be stronger or better armed than the citizenry. An armed citizenry, willing to fight is the foundation of civil freedom.” Heinlein

  11. #50
    Oklahoma is a "must inform" state. I say "Good morning/afternoon/evening officer. Before we get started, the Oklahoma Self Defense Act requires me to inform you that I have a carry permit and I am carrying firearms at the present time." I haven't had much contact with the local police, but the Oklahoma Highway Patrol has been polite and professional in my personal knowledge.
    War to the Knife, Knife to the hilt.
    If we don't want to live in a trashy area, we all have to be willing to help pick up the trash.

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