VA Hospital ... Legal to carry? - Page 2
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Thread: VA Hospital ... Legal to carry?

  1. Quote Originally Posted by SCLady View Post
    I'm a retired VA Nurse and even if it is in your vehicle and they find out, it's federal offense to even have one on Federal property.
    Not all Federal Property. Only certain Federal Property.

    18 USC 930 makes it illegal to carry inside Federal Facilities, i.e. buildings.

    The Code of Federal Regulations expands on that and makes it illegal on certain Federal Property, such as the Post Office ($50.00 fine) and on VA property ($500.00 fine and possibly imprisonment not to exceed 6 months.)

    38 CFR 1.218 - Security and law enforcement at VA facilities.

    (a) Authority and rules of conduct. Pursuant to 38 U.S.C. 901, the following rules and regulations apply at all property under the charge and control of VA (and not under the charge and control of the General Services Administration) and to all persons entering in or on such property. The head of the facility is charged with the responsibility for the enforcement of these rules and regulations and shall cause these rules and regulations to be posted in a conspicuous place on the property.

    ...

    (13) Weapons and explosives. No person while on property shall carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, except for official purposes.

    ...

    (b) Schedule of offenses and penalties. Conduct in violation of the rules and regulations set forth in paragraph (a) of this section subjects an offender to arrest and removal from the premises. Whomever shall be found guilty of violating these rules and regulations while on any property under the charge and control of VA is subject to a fine as stated in the schedule set forth herein or, if appropriate, the payment of fixed sum in lieu of appearance (forfeiture of collateral) as may be provided for in rules of the United States District Court. Violations included in the schedule of offenses and penalties may also subject an offender to a term of imprisonment of not more than six months, as may be determined appropriate by a magistrate or judge of the United States District Court:

    ...

    (37) Possession of firearms, carried either openly or concealed, whether loaded or unloaded (except by Federal or State law enforcement officers on official business, $500...

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  3. #12
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    No guns on federal property including the VA, Social Security Admin, IRS, FAA, FCC, SEC & post office. This includes parking lots unless the lot is shared such as in a strip mall. My local IRS leases space in an office park with many businesses so the parking lot is legal in that situation..
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  4. Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    No guns on federal property including the VA, Social Security Admin, IRS, FAA, FCC, SEC & post office. This includes parking lots unless the lot is shared such as in a strip mall. My local IRS leases space in an office park with many businesses so the parking lot is legal in that situation..
    Post Office - 39 CFR 232.1
    Veterans Administration - 38 CFR 1.218
    Social Security Admin - ????????
    Internal Revenue Service - ????????
    Federal Avaition Administration - ????????
    Security Exchange Commission - ????????

    It really helps everyone if when you make a claim that something is illegal you provide an actual citation to the law that make it illegal.

    Without something to reference we are stuck with a bunch of internet banter consisting of nothing more than "Yes, it's legal!" "No, you'll get put away in prison!" "I was told this!" "I was told something completely different!" "Nobody is sure what the truth really is!"

    41 CFR 102-74 deals with Federal facilities that are under contract, i.e. the Social Security Office that is located in a commercial bulding not owned by the Federal Government.

    Title 41: Public Contracts and Property Management
    PART 102–74—FACILITY MANAGEMENT

    Subpart C—Conduct on Federal Property

    Applicability

    102-74.365 To whom does this subpart apply?
    The rules in this subpart apply to all property under the authority of GSA and to all persons entering in or on such property. Each occupant agency shall be responsible for the observance of these rules and regulations. Federal agencies must post the notice in the Appendix to this part at each public entrance to each Federal facility.

    ...

    Explosives

    102-74.435 What is the policy concerning explosives on Federal property?
    No person entering or while on Federal property may carry or possess explosives, or items intended to be used to fabricate an explosive or incendiary device, either openly or concealed, except for official purposes.

    Weapons

    102-74.440 What is the policy concerning weapons on Federal property?
    Federal law prohibits the possession of firearms or other dangerous weapons in Federal facilities and Federal court facilities by all persons not specifically authorized by 18 U.S.C. 930. Violators will be subject to fine and/or imprisonment for periods up to five (5) years.

    ...

    Penalties

    102-74.450 What are the penalties for violating any rule or regulation in this subpart?
    A person found guilty of violating any rule or regulation in this subpart while on any property under the charge and control of GSA shall be fined under title 18 of the United States Code, imprisoned for not more than 30 days, or both.

    Nowhere does this address any prohibition on the carry of a firearm in the Parking lot of the "Federal Facility" as defined in 18 U.S.C. 930.

    So, it is legal in any parking lot where the Federal Facility is not actually on Federally owned land.

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
    Post Office - 39 CFR 232.1
    Veterans Administration - 38 CFR 1.218
    Social Security Admin - ????????
    Internal Revenue Service - ????????
    Federal Avaition Administration - ????????
    Security Exchange Commission - ????????

    It really helps everyone if when you make a claim that something is illegal you provide an actual citation to the law that make it illegal.

    Without something to reference we are stuck with a bunch of internet banter consisting of nothing more than "Yes, it's legal!" "No, you'll get put away in prison!" "I was told this!" "I was told something completely different!" "Nobody is sure what the truth really is!"

    41 CFR 102-74 deals with Federal facilities that are under contract, i.e. the Social Security Office that is located in a commercial bulding not owned by the Federal Government.

    Title 41: Public Contracts and Property Management
    PART 102–74—FACILITY MANAGEMENT

    Subpart C—Conduct on Federal Property

    Applicability

    102-74.365 To whom does this subpart apply?
    The rules in this subpart apply to all property under the authority of GSA and to all persons entering in or on such property. Each occupant agency shall be responsible for the observance of these rules and regulations. Federal agencies must post the notice in the Appendix to this part at each public entrance to each Federal facility.

    ...

    Explosives

    102-74.435 What is the policy concerning explosives on Federal property?
    No person entering or while on Federal property may carry or possess explosives, or items intended to be used to fabricate an explosive or incendiary device, either openly or concealed, except for official purposes.

    Weapons

    102-74.440 What is the policy concerning weapons on Federal property?
    Federal law prohibits the possession of firearms or other dangerous weapons in Federal facilities and Federal court facilities by all persons not specifically authorized by 18 U.S.C. 930. Violators will be subject to fine and/or imprisonment for periods up to five (5) years.

    ...

    Penalties

    102-74.450 What are the penalties for violating any rule or regulation in this subpart?
    A person found guilty of violating any rule or regulation in this subpart while on any property under the charge and control of GSA shall be fined under title 18 of the United States Code, imprisoned for not more than 30 days, or both.

    Nowhere does this address any prohibition on the carry of a firearm in the Parking lot of the "Federal Facility" as defined in 18 U.S.C. 930.

    So, it is legal in any parking lot where the Federal Facility is not actually on Federally owned land.
    Sorry, I didn't look up the statutes. I teach the NY state penal law but am not well versed in federal law. I rely on our attorney for this. Plus, we rarely have any federal related issues in the office. However, each of the locations in question do have signs that cite the applicable statute. Funny, one SSA office had the sign on the inside door so you can't see it until you're exiting the offices... a little too late.

    You stated "So, it is legal in any parking lot where the Federal Facility is not actually on Federally owned land." Yes, that is what I said. Also, the "federal facility" is defined as all lands belonging to the applicable agency, including the parking lot. I do remember the parking lot interpretation came from fed case law.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  6. You stated "So, it is legal in any parking lot where the Federal Facility is not actually on Federally owned land." Yes, that is what I said. Also, the "federal facility" is defined as all lands belonging to the applicable agency, including the parking lot. I do remember the parking lot interpretation came from fed case law.[/QUOTE]

    What about when it one of the big facilities where they do own the land? Would it be legal unloaded in a locked box in the vehicle? I'm getting a referral to the specialty clinic in a bigger city a 3 hr drive away, and don't like being naked that far from home.

  7. #16
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    Remember: The Federal Government is the biggest infringer of all.
    Never argue with a red-haired witch. It wastes your breath and only delays the inevitable. --the collected sayings of Wiz Zumwalt

  8. #17
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    Florida Panhandle
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    The va is very strict about guns and knives. There is good reason for this. Some of the staff are particularly annoying and it is for their own protection.
    I once saw the va cops disarm a badged fire investigator on a federal task force just because he was on va property and had not been "cleared in advance" of his visit.

  9. #18
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    Oct 2009
    Location
    OHIO
    Posts
    2,109
    Amendment II

    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


    Hmmmm, looks like it is Legal to me........

  10. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    59
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    You stated "So, it is legal in any parking lot where the Federal Facility is not actually on Federally owned land." Yes, that is what I said. Also, the "federal facility" is defined as all lands belonging to the applicable agency, including the parking lot. I do remember the parking lot interpretation came from fed case law.
    Walk into SSA, the first thing you'll probably see is a security checkpoint and metal detector. I walked into one right after they started installing them and said, "Ah, you're not going to let me walk in there 'til after I run back out to the car—be right back!" The officer laughed and nodded. He told me later they get that all the time.

    I was just in there this week, dutifully unarmed. *sigh* Had a brief talk with the state trooper about it: Knives under 2.5" are now allowed. If they find something longer, they'll have to take it out to your car and come back. But if you try to go through the metal detector and bag x-ray with a gun or some obviously-not-a-pocket-knife, they do arrest. MOST who are carrying something they shouldn't come in, see the checkpoint, and leave. That's not probable cause to assume they're carrying.

    He said a couple of people have come in and asked the officer to drop paperwork in the drop box because they don't want to go through the checkpoint. I personally don't recommend that because IMO you've just as much as told them that there is some reason you can't pass through security. I dunno if that gives them probable cause or not, but I'd sure hate to argue before a judge as a CHL holder that I was in a federal facility with ANYTHING I knew I couldn't take through security, and that I told the officers as much!

  11. #20
    Gut feeling: Don't screw with them. If it can be interpreted as federal property, don't carry a weapon or have one in your car. Arguing nuances with them you will not win. It is not the place to make your stand. And if you are VA, they may declare you unfit to own weapons.

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