Something To Think About In An Active Shooter Scenario - Page 2
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Thread: Something To Think About In An Active Shooter Scenario

  1. #11
    Wow, I don't really go to church, I had no idea they have security teams now???

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iam2Taz View Post
    That was a mess waiting to happen.
    The pastor should have already known he has a security team. - Just like our church. - In MO you "are supposed to" have permission to carry in the building. For our church that means, you go to the pastor and he hooks you up with the security person. That person "qualifies" you. i.e. Takes you to the range for some practice and discussion. If you are approved, he introduces you to the rest of the team and confirms your area in the church and your job if something happens. It is quite a process. In my humble opinion it is worth it for the safety of everyone in the building. I certainly don't want to be shot by one of the deacons, nor do I want to shoot one of them!
    Yet, I am positive there is at least two other persons carrying at church without permission.

    The sheer liability of the situation is unreal. While a lot of people may duck and run, there may be a significant number drawing weapons and someone will get hurt out side of the BGs. I guess the pastor needs to fire the security team or have faith that he will add people for the occasion.

    (EDIT by Treo In Colorado no permission is needed)


    In answer to above..
    Treo - The pastor put everyone in jeopardy because he didn't trust the team he had in place. By inviting others as a "quasi additional security team" he put the other team, who didn't know, at risk as well as those in the building. The fact that you carry is not a problem unless you draw your weapon if something happens. If you draw, you could become a target for both teams. - Just my thoughts.
    First let me say that I am not privy to the day to day operations of the security team. In fact I would just about bet that my friend overstepped his bounds by telling me that he was carrying that day and that such a team even existed.

    Having said that, it is my understanding that this was a special occurrence and armed security, other than one guy who unofficially hangs out on the foyer and keeps an eye on the approaches to the children’s church area, is not the norm for this church. I was decided that it should be done because it was 9/11 and we had the special event.

    So there weren’t two different security teams that were unaware of each other’s existence. What was in place was a handpicked security team that on one that wasn’t involved knew about.
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  4. You know this brings up a number of things.
    Security is a broad topic. What type of security are we talking about? Internal? External? Loss prevention? Crowd control? Perimeter? What combination? I'm not trying to be a smartass here but to illustrate a point. What type does this security team normally do? Probably not active shooter interdiction or special additions would not have to be made-they would already be in place and routine.

    The whole idea of a Team, of course, is that everybody has a specific area of responsibility. The team has trained together and each member knows his job and can rely on others knowing and doing theirs. In the case of a church where the structural layout remains the same the team has the advantage of being able to maximise and fine tune their plan ahead of time. Any new team member is an unknown who could be a help but more likely is going to be a hinderence to the team acting effectively.
    The only place I could see using such additional people would be as eyes and ears (and arms)outside the building on the approaches and in the parking areas; the idea being to interdict before the shooter gains access to the crowd. In fact, during the service, outside the building is where I would want to have a second team.

    Regarding the idea of a sniper, if I thought there was a chance of an active hostile, why wouldn't I want a qualified shooter and a place to put him? If the right vantage point was available it's quite possible that a trained sniper would have the best chance of removing the threat.

    Regarding a debriefing, it may not be your place to suggest it, but it needs to occurr or the security team is not using best practices. I'm not suggesting that they haven't debriefed. I'm just saying it's on the have-to-do list.

    Finally, all of these things may in fact have been done, fact is, we don't know; and that takes us back to your original question: what should YOU do? My answer? Get out of the kill zone and take one or two others with you.

    P.S. Well done, sitting by an exit.

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    Regarding the idea of a sniper, if I thought there was a chance of an active hostile, why wouldn't I want a qualified shooter and a place to put him? If the right vantage point was available it's quite possible that a trained sniper would have the best chance of removing the threat.
    I am almost positive that setting up your own sniper overwatch would be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    Regarding a debriefing, it may not be your place to suggest it, but it needs to occurr or the security team is not using best practices. I'm not suggesting that they haven't debriefed. I'm just saying it's on the have-to-do list.
    I agree but I will likely never know if it happened.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    P.S. Well done, sitting by an exit.
    To be fair we picked that spot because A.) I was working graves at the time and ,since I went straight from work to church,I was prone to nodding off (We figured it would be less disruptive if I was all the way in the back)

    and B.) the other side of the sanctuary is a glass wall so that people can sit in the atrium and drink coffe and listen to the sermon if they are so inclined. Sitting in front of that wall gave me the creeps. So, we moved to the other side where it's a real wall.

    So, I can't take credit for my tactical genius
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  6. #15
    Your church needs a "minister of tactical considerations". The security team can be issued badges, shotguns, tazers, body armor, and comm gear. You might also want an equestrian officer for patroling around the parking lot. While a canine officer might seem like a good idea to prevent gang members from smuggling drugs into the church services, I think more range time for the security team would be better from a cost/benefit standpoint.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    I guess I'm not following you. If he put the congregation at risk by having an approved and picked team of men that he trusted (and who likely are armed at church most of the time anyway) armed at church that night, how do I not endanger the congregation every time I show up w/ a gun?
    But that was the issue Treo, The guys that were asked at the last minute to come to worship armed were not regular members of the security team. That's where I saw the problem.

    Not knowing how the additions would react under a stess condition of some nutball charging the visiting dignitary is the worry I would have. Now if these additions have trained for this kind of duty before and have acted as a tem previously, then I retract my statement. If the additions got no indoctrination as to what to expect and how to react in the event of an arising problem, then there is a problem waiting to be unleashed.

    If you're the kind of guy that starts shooting at the first sign of panic from the masses then I would say you would be a danger to the congregation when you show up with a gun. The question is "are you that kind of armed citizen?" If not then I'd say you're no more of a danger than the normal, trained security team members.

    The whole key to my objection were the additional guys that were brought on for the occasion and are not part of the security team. Hopefully they got some time to train with the full time security team prior to the big event.

  8. #17
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    OK, I see your point
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  9. #18
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    Walt269 said it well. I'd like to also agree with the other posters also who feel some organization needs to take place with any church security team, or any 'team' for that matter. It just makes sense to have the guys meet and discuss thier roles, communications, scenario planning/practice, etc. Also, the training should help each member of the team to understand the need for discretion, and also the risks involved when/if defending against active shooters. And for heavens sake (no pun intended) let's hope these guys have some handgun training and I mean more than the run-of-the-mill, non-stress shooting CCW class anyway!
    1)"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." -Thomas Jefferson.
    2)"Imagine how gun control might be stomped if GOA or SAF had the (compromising) NRA's 4 million members!" -Me. http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/nraletter.htm

  10. #19
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    It wasnít my intent to hold back any information for this scenario but I see how I could have communicated the situation much more clearly. So, here is every thing I know.

    The evangelist (or guest speaker if you prefer) is a name guy. I didnít mention his name because I didnít want to start a debate about whether or not heís legitimate. That said I am certain he could afford his own security and he may have had his own security there. If he did I am going to assume 1 or 2 body guards whose main duty in an emergency would be to grab him and get him out of there. (There is an exit right behind the pulpit.)

    The church was expecting between one and three thousand attendees (in three separate auditoriums) of which about a third would have been regular members and maybe three or four hundred from the adjoining Bible College. So, maybe 1500 people that are not regular attendees.

    The church is in an industrial area and had made arrangements to use parking lots from neighboring businesses.

    An announcement was made that they would be needing extra help w/ parking and ushering no mention was made of armed security. I assume that the armed security was picked from that group but, I donít know that for sure.

    This is an opinion but given my friend was one of the people picked for armed security Iím not entirely comfortable w/ the sound judgment of the person that did the picking.

    Now, if I were in charge I would have handled it like this:

    I would have uniformed all my security people in a distinct uniform that no one else would be likely to be wearing. ( reflective vests for the parking guys). Maybe a brightly colored vest labled "STAFF"

    Assuming three parking lots, I would have 2 people in each lot w/ radios. I would consider arming the two in the main lot.

    I would have one point of entrance to the church and three guards right there (All three seating areas are less than 30 seconds from the front door) and two guards in each seating area.

    My friend was in the sound booth in the main area (Not the best person but certainly a good location).

    Finally I would have dictated to the evangelistís guards ( that I donít know for sure existed) that in the event of an emergency their sole responsibility would be to remove him from the church.

    I also would have drilled the response team and seriously considered hiring at least one off duty CSPD for a visible presence out side the church
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  11. #20
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    Cross fire victims are abound!
    Who to shoot...That is the question!

    I think if the church is going to do this (I applaud them) there should be some training as a team and given some placement instructions and assigned a zone....Also I think the church needs to know of all permit holders that carry so they can work together and know each other so you avoid mistaken identity and have them shoot each other.

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