Something To Think About In An Active Shooter Scenario
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 22

Thread: Something To Think About In An Active Shooter Scenario

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Colorado Rocky Mountain High
    Posts
    3,900

    Something To Think About In An Active Shooter Scenario

    On September 11 a nationally known evangelist spoke at our church. I was talking to a friend of mine from church today and he told me that on that Sunday our Pastor had asked the guy that is in charge of security for the church to pick a number of members of our congregation and ask them to come to service that day armed. This was pretty much just a precaution and, of course, nothing happened.

    Now in addition to this group of armed security volunteers I happen to know of at least 4 people in my church who carry who were not members of that group.

    Now here’s my question
    1.The armed volunteers had no training as a team that I am aware of. I am certain that men were picked who had some previous training and experience but as far as I know they were simply stationed at various places in the church and told to "keep an eye out.” In fact I know of at least one of them who didn't even have a permit

    2. The group of concealed carriers was not aware, to my knowledge, that the group of volunteers existed.

    Now supposing something had happened what happens when the carriers group (or any member there of) draws their weapon in response to a threat? Or one of the security volunteers draws and is perceived by a carrier as a threat or vice versa? I am aware that this has never happened but I would think that this would be an environment ripe for it. Especially given that this is an awfully high number of people carrying a concealed weapon in a given location.

    Suppose you were in the church and an attack was made; would it be better for you to just hole up and not get involved because of the confusion that could be generated by three armed groups (Attacker(s), carriers and volunteers) operating at the same time? It also occurrs to me that there may have been another group in the mix if the evanglist had an armed security detail w/ him.

    FWIW My wife and I sit in the back right next to an exit door and my first response to any type of attack would very likely be to hustle my wife out the side door.
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  2.   
  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    On September 11 a nationally known evangelist spoke at our church. I was talking to a friend of mine from church today and he told me that on that Sunday our Pastor had asked the guy that is in charge of security for the church to pick a number of members of our congregation and ask them to come to service that day armed. This was pretty much just a precaution and, of course, nothing happened.

    Now in addition to this group of armed security volunteers I happen to know of at least 4 people in my church who carry who were not members of that group.

    Now here’s my question
    1.The armed volunteers had no training as a team that I am aware of. I am certain that men were picked who had some previous training and experience but as far as I know they were simply stationed at various places in the church and told to "keep an eye out.” In fact I know of at least one of them who didn't even have a permit

    2. The group of concealed carriers was not aware, to my knowledge, that the group of volunteers existed.

    Now supposing something had happened what happens when the carriers group (or any member there of) draws their weapon in response to a threat? Or one of the security volunteers draws and is perceived by a carrier as a threat or vice versa? I am aware that this has never happened but I would think that this would be an environment ripe for it.Especially given that this is an awfully high number of people carrying a concealed weapon in a given location.

    Suppose you were in the church and an attack was made; would it be better for you to just hole up and not get involved because of the confusion that could be generated by three armed groups (Attacker(s), carriers and volunteers) operating at the same time?

    FWIW My wife and I sit in the back right next to an exit door and my first response to any type of attack would very likely be to hustle my wife out the side door.
    Knowing you I can be sure they did not have any badges or CCW banners or you would probably have shot them yourself, just kidding.

    IMHO something like this only makes sense if the armed folks can identify each other, otherwise it's a recipe for disaster.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Colorado Rocky Mountain High
    Posts
    3,900
    Quote Originally Posted by jg1967 View Post
    Knowing you I can be sure they did not have any badges or CCW banners or you would probably have shot them yourself, just kidding.

    IMHO something like this only makes sense if the armed folks can identify each other, otherwise it's a recipe for disaster.
    On the night the night of Sept 11 I was completely unaware that this was going on. Given the situation and knowing what I know now I would be much less likely to get involved if something happened today for instance because I really wouldn't know who the players were (unless it was obvious like the shooter was wearing a trench coat and body armor and carrying an AR)
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  5. Wow! Good question. I think your instinct to hustle you and yours out the door is your best personal move. For the concealed carrier it doesn't really change anything as for you the issues are the same anywhere you go: you don't know who else is armed and might perceive you as part of the threat. Unless I was sitting next to/behind the guy and had a once-in-a-life-time sure-thing opportunity to end it right then I'd probably still go for escape.

    It still begs the question of how the security team should respond though. Not knowing who was on the security team and what their training level is, it's difficult to assess the situation. Could be what you really had was a group of armed individuals. I think a debriefing would be in order with the head of security.
    A pie-in-the-sky idea might be for the church to consider sending the security chief (a one-man department?) to a professional training class on how to respond to just such a scenario. Then, he would have the knowledge to make the best use of any ad-hoc team he could throw together; hopefully with any LEO members. The things that leap immediately to mind are:

    1) Fields of fire issues.
    2) The more people who are able to escape the situation, the clearer it would be who the bad guy(s)are.
    3) Is this a situation where a sniper position could be set up?
    4) Some Como is always good to have but might not be doable in this situation.

    I'm interested to hear from some of our LEOs here what their thoughts are. It sounds like a big mess.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Colorado Rocky Mountain High
    Posts
    3,900
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    For the concealed carrier it doesn't really change anything as for you the issues are the same anywhere you go: you don't know who else is armed and might perceive you as part of the threat.
    This is true but, as I pointed out in the OP, the issue is exacerbated by the fact that there were minimumally 9 to 15 people carrying weapons in a relatively small area that day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    Unless I was sitting next to/behind the guy and had a once-in-a-life-time sure-thing opportunity to end it right then I'd probably still go for escape.
    True

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    I think a debriefing would be in order with the head of security.
    If you are talking about me just walking up and sticking my finger in this guy's Kool Aid, the answer is no.
    He's a former Marine and he knows every thing there possibly is to know about church security and if you don't believe me just ask him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    A pie-in-the-sky idea might be for the church to consider sending the security chief (a one-man department?) to a professional training class on how to respond to just such a scenario.
    New Life Church (Google NLC shooting) offers just such a class to pass on their lessons learned. That said, still not my place to suggest it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    Is this a situation where a sniper position could be set up?
    Please tell me that's not a serious question

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    Some Como is always good to have but might not be doable in this situation.
    Radio shack earpiece radios, same thing I wore in the sound booth so the nursery ladies could call me to put up the number for parents who were needed in the nursery

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    I'm interested to hear from some of our LEOs here what their thoughts are.
    I'd like to hear the cops take on your sniper idea
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  7. #6
    I believe it was horribly irresponsible of the pastor to covertly solicit individuals to carry unbeknownst to the rest of the congregation. This, as you pointed out, sets up opportunities for all kinds of confusion if/when BG shows up. But such is the case with knee-jerk decisions.

    A more sensible and security-minded approach would be to have openly solicited the congregation for a meeting of all members who might be interested in being part of a security team for the church, and then holding meetings. First, to identify interested individuals, and what each has to offer. Then to set expectations and limitations. Having such a group sponsored.by a local PD or SO would be best, so that clear lines can be drawn between what actions are appropriate for citizenry, and what actions might be best handled by law enforcement (effecting arrest, chasing a fleeing felon, etc.). The issue of who carries a weapon should be left to individual choice, but known within the group.

    Following this, the congregation should know that there is a group of members acting in this capacity, so that there are fewer surprises. I don't believe publishing a list of who is in the group, who carries a firearm, who is a LEO, etc., would be wise. But keeping the existence of the group a.secret entirely is unwise as well.

    Knowing churches as I do, there will be heated debate about the existence of such a group. But churches operate democratically, so it will depend on those with the brains, common sense and education to defend sensibility.

    This is a huge topic and a fantastic question. I look forward to hearing other responses.

  8. #7
    Similar situations happen all the time for law enforcement too. You have uniformed cops from multiple jurisdictions, undercover cops, random undercover agents, armed civilians and armed bad guys. I'm reminded of a scene from the movie "In the Line of Fire" where Clint Eastwood says something like "Hell, if someone takes a shot, with all the guns in here, we'll probably be killed in the crossfire."

    Yet in most shooting incidents the majority of potential shooters cower or run away leaving very few actual shooters. The one who initiates shooting, shoots many rounds and keeps shooting in random directions can be quickly identified as the attacker/bad guy. Then the one who can get control of his faculties and stop the threat if possible, does so.
    A man's life, liberty, and property are only safe when the legislature is NOT in session. Will Rogers

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    2,004
    The pastor put you, your family and everyone else in the congregation into a situation that could have gone deadly in a matter of minutes. All it would have taken is an untrained, armed "volunteer" to miss interept an action or reaction of someone in the congregation to create a deadly scene.

    I am not a 'sheepdog' (discussion for another thread) so I would be prone to evade and evacuate. Get my family out safely under any circumstance.

    Personally, knowing what you now know, you should be all over the pastor about his very poor choice regardless of his good intentions!

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Colorado Rocky Mountain High
    Posts
    3,900
    Quote Originally Posted by walt629 View Post
    Personally, knowing what you now know, you should be all over the pastor about his very poor choice regardless of his good intentions!
    I guess I'm not following you. If he put the congregation at risk by having an approved and picked team of men that he trusted (and who likely are armed at church most of the time anyway) armed at church that night, how do I not endanger the congregation every time I show up w/ a gun?
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  11. #10
    That was a mess waiting to happen.
    The pastor should have already known he has a security team. - Just like our church. - In MO you "are supposed to" have permission to carry in the building. For our church that means, you go to the pastor and he hooks you up with the security person. That person "qualifies" you. i.e. Takes you to the range for some practice and discussion. If you are approved, he introduces you to the rest of the team and confirms your area in the church and your job if something happens. It is quite a process. In my humble opinion it is worth it for the safety of everyone in the building. I certainly don't want to be shot by one of the deacons, nor do I want to shoot one of them!
    Yet, I am positive there is at least two other persons carrying at church without permission.

    The sheer liability of the situation is unreal. While a lot of people may duck and run, there may be a significant number drawing weapons and someone will get hurt out side of the BGs. I guess the pastor needs to fire the security team or have faith that he will add people for the occasion.

    In answer to above..
    Treo - The pastor put everyone in jeopardy because he didn't trust the team he had in place. By inviting others as a "quasi additional security team" he put the other team, who didn't know, at risk as well as those in the building. The fact that you carry is not a problem unless you draw your weapon if something happens. If you draw, you could become a target for both teams. - Just my thoughts.

    Psalm 82:3-5

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Quantcast