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Thread: Robbery Scenario

  1. FFChen's response is a likely good one, but, here is my response added to the question!

    For Right Handed carriers, which most of you are, your CC is IWB at 5 o'clock in this scenario. Most men carry their wallet in the right rear pocket (i.e. 5 o'clock)!
    At the point I had been originally approached by the BG, I would have turned my CC side away from the BG, at the same time moving in a position to shield my wife.
    Now, if one has practised their draw correctly, round chambered, would not one be inclined to give the illusion of complying with the BG's demand, reach for your wallet, but instead, present a weapon with a well place double tap! :-)

    At the same time, she would have been pretending to comply, reaching for her wallet in her purse, but instead also present her weapon with well practised double tap!

    Now, for the few like myself, that are lefties, my CC is at the 7/8 position, thus, the dropping or tossing of the wallet would be included in the steps to detract the BG, away from what my left hand is doing!

    That per unsuspecting BG would probably end up with 4 holes in him!

    All boils down to situational awareness, and never, never allow yourself to be in condition white, always be ready.

    Also, what type of weapon are you carrying?, is there a round in the chamber?, is the safety on? etc, etc!

    Interesting! My two cents worth!

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  3. #12
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    He has the drop and gets one of my two wallets, usually keep about 40 bucks in it, wife and I have talked numerous times about this and she knows to step behind me as she drops her purse, choice is limited but my take is look for whatever advantage you have and take it. Purse from on ground from wife wallet from left hand and 45 from right. Personal choice but I for one am not going down without a fight. Again it goes down to being aware of your surroundings and abilities. Practice, Practice, Practice.

  4. #13
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    Let me make this as simple as I possibly can; If you point a gun at or in the general vicinity of my wife either you or I are going to die.
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
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  5. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Deserteagle View Post
    Let me offer a rebuttal since it seems like you were more critical and "holier than thou" rather than helpful. I would expect an instructor to offer ideas on how to handle the situation rather than say everything that is wrong and "crap" with a fictional scenario.

    Mentioning the attacker has his gun pointed sideways is critical information. It shows the attacker has a lack of knowledge on how to properly use a firearm. It also shows that the odds he will hit what he wants to hit will be slightly diminished as he cannot properly align the sights on his target. Am I trying to paint a picture of a particular individual? Yep, a criminal that acquired a gun and doesnt quite know how to use it, but none the less, is still a threat because he has one.
    With this said, running becomes a legitimate option since the attacker will likely have a much harder time hitting a moving target while not even holding the gun right.
    I simply presented a scenario and a few solutions off the top of my head. Any scenario you are presented with in real life is not going to be perfect, and it sure as heck will have tons of "non relevant" factors in it and in my opinion, whether you think so or not, thoughts of your family member next to you will definitely be running through your head. (I dont have a wife btw, I thought this would be more interesting than saying you were alone).
    Regarding a robbery in general, I dont think the money is the problem. It's what the robber does after taking the money. If he points a gun at you, he may very well be willing to kill you to eliminate his witness. There is a smaller but important issue with the fact that he would have your address, but its not as important as his decision to kill you or let you live after robbing you.
    Regarding the fictional wife, I never said anything about what she thinks of you. I said she expects you to be her first line of defense.
    It is also obvious that we are justified in using force here. The question I asked is whether or not you will choose to, and if so, how?

    At the end you say I should accept that there is a good chance I will come out bleeding, but I do not accept that. Nobody should accept being hurt or being killed. It sure as heck may happen to any of us, but I wont take that as acceptable. A synonym for acceptable is satisfactory. Would you consider coming out bleeding as satisfactory? I wouldnt. Its better than dying, but it's not satisfactory in my book. I think people coming together and discussing ideas, talking about tactics, and doing some real training/practice will get us to the point that being killed or almost killed is not a satisfactory result.
    I was about to go into a lengthy "tit for tat" response to your rebuttal. But here's what it boils down to:

    1) In a situation like the one you describe, YES it is obvious that you are justified in using deadly force. But it is NOT clear whether one would be best served by doing so.

    2) I stand by my assertion that these hypotheticals should be approached from these standpoints: "What information is relevant?" "What other information could I quickly acquire, in the situation?"

    3) Ego should not come into play when making a choice about whether or not to defend yourself.

    4) As others have also iterated, when someone has the drop on you, your options are limited, and you have a short time to process information and make decisions. And regardless of whether or not you accept this fact, there is a good chance you're not coming out of it unscathed. It's better that you realize this up front, so that you can keep a fighting "never give up" mentality, rather than being shocked into inaction if you (or your loved one) get injured in the fight.

    If anyone desires a more in-depth discussion on these issues, one should sign up for the NRA Personal Protection series of courses.
    S&W M&P 45; Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum; Charter Arms .38 Undercover
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  6. #15
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    Hypothetical situations are just that, I would like to think that I would be prepared for such an event but you never know what you will do. No two scenarios will be the same. Situational awareness plays a big role in keeping you safe. I do not live in a city, but when I do go to a city I am Always aware of my surroundings and the people around me. If a BG walked out and did that I would try to distract him just enough to be able to either get to cover or draw and fire. To me it would not be the loss of money or jewelry that would make me draw my weapon but the fact that he started the encounter with his weapon pointed at me which tells me he has more than just taking money on his mind. I will match the force used to try and make me a victim.

  7. #16
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    These hypothetical situations are impossible to comment on. No one here could tell you what they'll do until it happens. Not until they experience the physiological and psychological affects of a life/death situation. The bravest intentions may turn. People make comments about the capability of the attacker because the gun may be turned "ghetto" style. Trust me, this stuff happens in seconds and these thoughts never enter one's mind. Also, the scene may play out in any number of ways.

    We get this stuff in class all the time. We can teach someone a skill set but we can never teach the exact reactions to a specific situation. The defender must employ the learned skills in a manner that best fits the situation. Sometimes you just hand-over the goods. Sometimes you break the perp's OODA loop.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  8. #17
    When it comes down to it, we all would hope we can think that fast, react the way we thought we would and ultimately, be the victor.

    We can rehearse until the cows come home but there will never be a situation exactly as we rehearsed and the slightest and most subtle difference will change the game.

    As far as Mr. Gain being 'holier than thou', I think not.

    It is my opinion his answer came from a sober and well thought out disection of the scenario.

    An accusation of being 'holier than thou' ,seems to me, comes from a person who thinks his ideas and 'wannabe a hero' mindset is the best and only right idea allowed.

    Everybody has an opinion and is welcome to it.

    Being that scenario situations are pretty much BS anyway, being the fact that you are hoping the perp reacts to your reaction the way you want him to so you can continue your with next move is shortsighted, in my opinion of course.

    As accused, Mr. Gain is an instructor and as such, he has answered in the most conservative way possible, which, as an instructor of NRA Pistol and CWP, I feel he should.

    If he was a CQ Combat arms instructor, he may have a different answer for your scenario.

    CQ Combat arms cannot be taught over the internet and as much as we would like to think we are the ultimate CQ fighter, and maybe you are Deserteagle, most of the answers here should really be from the mind set of who we really are, not what we dream we are.

    Maybe there should be a Forum heading title here on USACarry named 'fantasy scenarios' which wouild allow us some of the plots Spielberg would be jealous of. But for now, I think we would be better served by keeping it real and just hope we are never in a situation like these scenarios played out here. Not saying don't be ready, just saying don't believe you absolutely know how you would react.

    I think Mr. Gain was done a dis-service by your remark.

    KK

  9. #18
    Thanks to those who have offered possible reactions to a possible situation. It is important to think ahead whether or not we think a possible situation is likely to happen.
    Nightmare45- I like that you have already talked to your wife about what to do rather than wait until after something has happened to discuss what you should have done.

    Keykutter- This thread is intended to get a discussion going on possible situations. Thinking about and talking about possible situations is very important. Although 2 situations with rarely have identical circumstances, it does not mean we cant think about possible reactions. When a situation does arise that you have never even thought about, you are going to find yourself less prepared, and for instance, you will find yourself standing there going "I have no idea right to do right now, Ive never thought about this happening, all I know how to do is draw my gun, but I dont know what I should do". We cant plan on anything, but we can think ahead.

    Have you ever thought about what would happen if you car broke down on the interstate or is that too much planning too?
    As for Phillip's response, he only posted on this thread to tear apart a person's possible scenario calling it "ego driven crap". I am glad I did not take his class and get nothing but "conservative" answers that go around a question rather than make any attempt to discuss possible solutions to it. Just like politicians, they go around questions rather than confront them, and only offer BS "conservative" answers that accomplish nothing. Watch a debate or the news and watch how a reporter asks a politician a direct question and the politician goes around it pointing out the obvious or saying general statements people like to hear.
    If somebody asked me to offer a solution to a problem or answer their question, I would say I have no answer, or I would answer it. I would not say the question is crap, and I would not offer an answer that avoids the question.

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    While I agree hypothetical scenarios such as this one have limited options, that is the most common kind of attack, we don't get to pick the moment we are attacked, the moment picks us, and we will only have limited options. Our options in most self defense situations basically boil down to how much loss are you going to take, and taking 0 loss is slim to none.

    To the OP:
    This is what I would do, and it's based off of my Uncles advice as an LAPD officer when I asked him a similar scenario. I carry 2 wallets, my real wallet (carries the important stuff and is less than a half inch thick, keep it in on the front of my body, unnoticable), and a receipt wallet (looks like its full of all the goodies). If this scenario was exactly how you described it, I would throw the reciept wallet towards him and when he broke his attention I would draw and fire. He has threatened my wifes life and my life when he pointed a firearm at me, no more questions, no more warnings, he has made his choice, I have made mine. I was a bit surprised my Uncle said he would draw and fire, but he explained there have been way to many people killed after they complied with the robber. I will not let my wife die that way. Change any part of your scenario and my answer would change, but you gave a specific scenario and I gave a specific answer.

    If someone wants to call me a macho internet commando ninja, go ahead, I will be all of that and more for my wife if someone tries to kill her. I love my wife, and I will give it everything I have to defend her, that includes all my ninja stars.
    Good idea regarding two wallets. As far as being a macho internet commando ninja, that's not a bad thing as long as you have a CCW badge to back it up! ;-)
    1)"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." -Thomas Jefferson.
    2)"Imagine how gun control might be stomped if GOA or SAF had the (compromising) NRA's 4 million members!" -Me. http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/nraletter.htm

  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare45 View Post
    He has the drop and gets one of my two wallets, usually keep about 40 bucks in it, wife and I have talked numerous times about this and she knows to step behind me as she drops her purse, choice is limited but my take is look for whatever advantage you have and take it. Purse from on ground from wife wallet from left hand and 45 from right. Personal choice but I for one am not going down without a fight. Again it goes down to being aware of your surroundings and abilities. Practice, Practice, Practice.
    I'm assuming you are CC then with a 'sweepable' cover garmet such as an open shirt or vest rather than a T-shirt or buttoned/zipped jacket that would require two hands to pull up (for certainty of bringing up garment above gun) if you wallet left and .45 right. If you OC then certainly that would become the very quick focal point for the BG... Any thoughts from anyone? (OTHER than turning this into yet another OC vs. CC nightmare, no pun there, Nightmare)

    As for me, I CC with most of my draw/fire practice using both hands to pull up garment. I'm thinking I need to practice more with sweeping as well...
    1)"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." -Thomas Jefferson.
    2)"Imagine how gun control might be stomped if GOA or SAF had the (compromising) NRA's 4 million members!" -Me. http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/nraletter.htm

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