CCW Incident (Input please) - Page 6
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Thread: CCW Incident (Input please)

  1. Quote Originally Posted by milesihrig View Post
    Back at the police station the officer test fired the weapon which I didn’t feel was necessary as there were no shots fired at the scene of the “crime”, but I didn’t make a deal about it.
    Just so you know, this was no "test" fire. You used your gun during a crime. The test was to do a ballistics test. It will be checked to see if used in any other crimes. Good luck

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  3. #52
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    I felt that he was going to physically attack me and before getting into a physical fight with him that could result in a lethal outcome, I drew my weapon and put the driver at gunpoint, yelling at him in a firm tone of voice, “get back, get in your truck and drive away”
    You've got no business carrying a firearm. If your attorney can get you a plea you'd be wise to take it.

    "It's easier to avoid conflict than it is to survive it" - SGB

  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gain View Post
    I will not comment any further on the specific incident presented in the original post. It has probably gone to court by now, and been settled with a less than optimal - but liveable - plea deal. And I do want to remind everyone - we're only hearing ONE SIDE of this story.

    There have been a few points brought up that need to be clarified here. Some are myths. Some are incomplete. Some are just BAD information period. These notions are what I will focus upon.

    1) With some variation between states, the general rule of bringing lethal force to bear in a situation is that you have to REASONABLY BELIEVE your life or safety is in danger, or FACTUALLY KNOW that the life or safety of another is in danger. It's dicey; one often has a few seconds at best to ascertain the severity of the threat and act accordingly, whereas a jury (if you go on trial) has the luxury of "armchair quarterbacking" your decision in a safely sequestered room.

    2) How much do you say to the police after you've been involved in a defensive shooting scenario? A lot of folks think they have THE answer to this question. But the truth is, there is NO ONE ANSWER FOR ANY GIVEN SITUATION. Here is the most succinct advice I have seen on this. This comes from the booklet "What Every Gun Owner Needs to Know About Self-Defense Law" which is available at Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc.



    3) In regard to the firearm(s) you carry. My advice to students is to carry "the largest caliber, with the biggest capacity, that you can comfortably carry and conceal daily." When it comes to firepower, more is better. BUT you also have to balance this off against how it will appear to a jury if you're charged. It sucks, but the reality is that what works for you "in the field" (high capacity firearm, fast trigger, multiple guns) can be used against you in court by a zealous prosecutor.

    The same principle applies to a number of other factors. If you wear a lot of clothing and gear that you purchased from police and army surplus stores, that's going to make you look less respectable than if you're wearing Dockers and a polo shirt, etc. If you're loitering in a known high-crime area, it looks worse than if you defended yourself in your driveway. If you are a fit man with martial arts or other fight training, a jury will question your need to draw your firearm more than if you were a petite girl without it. If you're with a group of friends, a jury will question your need to draw, moreso than if you were by yourself. If you are in your 20s, the jury will question your ability to make a smart self-defense decision more than if you're in your 40s. It's not fair...but that's life. Accept it, and make your choices accordingly.

    4) "When you draw, you have to shoot." NOT TRUE. NOT TRUE. NOT TRUE. And in case I wasn't clear, THIS IS NOT TRUE. However - when you draw, you are "bringing deadly force to bear." Which means, if the situation is not one where deadly force is already involved...you just made it into one.

    The important thing to remember is that the standard for being justified in DISPLAYING deadly force (pointing your firearm) is the SAME as for USING deadly force (shooting).

    To review - the only justification for bringing lethal force to bear (whether displaying or using) in a situation is that you have to REASONABLY BELIEVE your life or safety is in danger, or FACTUALLY KNOW that the life or safety of another is in danger.

    YOU MUST CEASE DISPLAYING OR USING DEADLY FORCE ONCE THE THREAT HAS BEEN STOPPED, THEN IMMEDIATELY GET TO SAFETY AND CALL 911.

    YOU ARE NOT JUSTIFIED IN SHOOTING SO THAT IT WILL "LOOK BETTER IN COURT" OR SO THAT THE "POLICE WILL ONLY HAVE YOUR SIDE OF THE STORY"

    LYING ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE THREAT IS EVEN WORSE.

    5) It is also important to know whether or not, in your jurisdiction, you have a duty to retreat before bringing deadly force to bear. Many jurisdictions have different standards for this, depending on whether you are in your home or in public.

    6) In regard to the "21 foot rule" - this is a GUIDELINE USED WHEN DETERMINING THE SEVERITY OF A THREAT. Basically the idea is that if someone has a weapon, or if there is a disparity of force, or if someone is otherwise presenting what you "reasonably believe to be an imminent threat to your life and safety" or what you "factually know to be an imminent threat to the life and safety of another"...the assailant doesn't have to be right on top of you.

    If someone is just shouting at you from 5 feet away...that is still less of a threat than if someone pulls a knife at 21 feet away.

    7) Most importantly, this poster's scenario can serve to underscore just how serious of a mindset one ought to have, when choosing to walk around armed. The police allow very little room for error. If it gets to court, prosecutors and often juries will allow even less room for error.

    We cannot allow ourselves to get caught up in bluster, swagger, buzzwords, machismo, and catchphrases. We must take our responsibilites VERY seriously. We must make our choices VERY carefully. And we must understand (as in all things) that even if we do everything right, it is still possible to have a bad outcome.
    Finally a common sense post. Well done Phillip. On a further note, when approached by someone like that you don't know what their intentions are and it's best to be prepared and I agree that just because you present your weapon doesn't mean you have to shoot. Give us an update after the smoke has cleared.
    Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress;
    but I repeat myself.
    Mark Twain

  5. #54
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    I won't comment on pulling the weapon since I wasn't there. However, the OP made two major mistakes that may cost him.

    1. You ALWAYS call the police and not the other party. He who calls first is the victim. Ask any LEO and I'd bet large sums of money they will agree.

    2. NEVER EVER talk to the police immediately after a firearms incident. When the LEO approaches and says: "Tell me what happened." The only response is:"Officer....OMG! I'm having massive chest pains....I think I may be having a heart attack....I need medical attention!!!!"

    No LEO is ever going to risk getting sued by not calling an ambulance immediately. To add to the sell I'd flop down on the ground and breath heavily. This immediately ends the police questioning and gives you the chance to call an attorney to meet you at the hospital. NEVER NEVER NEVER talk to the police. You may say one wrong thing that could make the difference between jail and acquittal.

  6. #55
    Milesihrig- This is what it boils down to: Keep your gun holstered until after you have decided that using lethal force is your only option. Threatening lethal force is never acceptable.

    I understand why you pulled your gun, but you still broke the law. In Colorado, threatening somebody verbally or physically with a weapon is menacing. This guy was simply walking and yelling, not breaking the law. You made him a victim before he made you a victim when you threatened him with lethal force in a most likely non-lethal situation.

    What I would have done is start running away while calling police. Would I look like a coward? Yep. Would I be put in jail? No. There is my solution. If he followed me into a corner and I had no more energy to run, that is a different situation.

    As for advice, plead not guilty and try to prove why you feared great bodily harm and had "no" other options.

  7. #56
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    So what happened in court?

  8. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by NCIC105 View Post
    So what happened in court?
    Perhaps the plea deal didn't go as expected.

  9. I joined this forum today, just to answer this post! I am a retired NYPD Homicide Detective and have carried for well over 27 years, 7 as a civilian. I am a supporter of civilians having the right to carry, I do believe they should not be issued a ccw until completing a NRA safety course as well as a state law class. Anyway in regard to the OP, you have no business carrying a firearm. In most states you need to be in fear of serious physical
    injury, not a street fight. A verbal altercation is not a reason to pull a firearm, it is not to be used as a
    threat,you saw no weapon, you were basically being yelled at.You cannot make assumptions or pose what ifs as a
    defense. You should take a plea and move on, you also should lose your right to carry.

  10. #59
    I am quite surprised at the answers that have been posted on this thread as usually I seem to be in the minority in cases like this. I wish the OP had posted this story on some other gun boards so that we could compare the responses to those that have been posted here. To me this is another one of the cases where someone was out "looking for an excuse to use their gun rather than having a need to use it". As for the OP's follow up posts I am afraid that he was just digging a deeper hole with each one. But we all need to learn a very valuable lesson from this and if we find ourselves in a similar situation use the advice that has been given here.

    To the OP; I wish you luck with your case because I am afraid that you are going to need all the luck you can get and more.

  11. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike1956 View Post
    Perhaps the plea deal didn't go as expected.
    You may be correct!

    Would not shock me.

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