CCW Incident (Input Please) Continued... - Page 11
Page 11 of 14 FirstFirst ... 910111213 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 135

Thread: CCW Incident (Input Please) Continued...

  1. #101
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    SE Florida
    Posts
    1,880
    Quote Originally Posted by G50AE View Post
    Which one, Unfettered Fright or JJFlash (Ah-ah) Gordon?
    LMAO! Is it possible for a pack to have more than one alpha-male???
    (Insert random tough-guy quote here)
    "See my gun?? Aren't you impressed?" - Anonymous sheepdog
    The hardware is the same, but the software is vastly different.

  2.   
  3. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall View Post
    LMAO! Is it possible for a pack to have more than one alpha-male???
    Maybe I should start calling them Ace and Gary?

  4. #103
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Pasco, Washington, United States
    Posts
    6,271
    Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall:244227
    According to the laws of most (if not all) states, if you're a healthy adult male, the threat of bare fists does not justify deadly force as a defensive measure. I'd venture to say that this applies in 99% of all such cases, certainly including the incident involving the OPer. In the eyes of the law, we're expected to take a bare-knuckle beating.

    Personally, I understand the idea of drawing-down on somebody who's enraged and screaming threats from just a few feet away. In a critical situation like that our first instinct is to go with our best, surest defense. For CCers, that's often our pistol. The law doesn't see it that way, like it or not.

    From a self defense standpoint, the problem with drawing in that situation is that it effectively takes any options other than shooting off the table should the BG choose to press home his attack. Blind rage, drugs/alcohol, mental instability, etc. could mean the perp just doesn't care about your gun. Now you pretty much have to shoot him....what else are you going to do?? He's only a few feet away and will be on you in an instant. And then you know what happens??? You go to jail facing some very serious charges. Just last night on the TV program "The First 48", a man was convicted of 2nd degree manslaughter because he shot and killed somebody who had run up on him at night, yelling at him with his arm outstretched. Turns out the dead guy didn't have a weapon and was probably just pointing his finger. I watch that program regularly and it was the first time I ever felt sympathy for a shooter on the show. Perfect example of what might happen if you draw on somebody who "might" be a "potential" threat.

    And if he backs off?? Well, as our OPer found out, from a legal standpoint you may very well be at the whim of the thug who created this situation (and possibly at the whim of an anti-gun prosecutor or judge). The OPer is exceptionally lucky the guy didn't show up for court.

    The bottom line is that you need to know the law and follow it whether you like it or not. If you choose not to then be prepared to face the consequences.
    See, thoughtful post with good points. As gunny puts it, we all fall for the game. My question to you is...

    If the person is enraged, or on drugs, or has a mental instability issue, would they have the mental capacity to stop themselves if they found themselves over an unconscious victim? Would the victim have the abilities to stop such an aggressor (especially when it's shown that bullets have a hard time stopping said aggressors)?

  5. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Axeanda45:244147
    Once again for the truly clueless (all you need to do is read their posts to know who they are...)

    Unarmed does NOT equal safe, non-threatening, no danger, etc.....
    The OP stated that to him, HE WAS IN FEAR FOR HIS AND HIS FRIENDS LIVES... Why is that so frikking hard for some of you to comprehend?

    Just because a perp has no visible weapon, it does NOT mean he isnt a danger or life threatening, period...... To say any different is to show your total lack of real world knowledge or in my opinion, a total lack of any knowledge at all.... Even if he has nothing but his body, it is still VERY easy for him to maim or kill you, again, if you cannot fathom that fact either, you have no clue, and no idea how the real world works, all you have is fake hollywood ideas of real life, not the real thing....
    I think what bothers me the most about what the OP portrayed is the very casual, almost flippant way he used his weapon. At least that is the way I have interpreted what he had said. I don't think he respects the seriousness of carrying a firearm. I think this shows in both how he describes the incident and the fact that he didn't have his permit on him.

    Also per your comments. I do not think it is reasonable in a 1v4 encounter when you have the advantage of numbers to claim you are afraid for your safety and that if your friends. I can tell you with 100% certainty my response would have been to say "Are you effing kidding me". Now if he had pulled a weapon that would have changed. It also would have been different had I been with my family or others that could not defend themselves. But 1v4 with my guy friends, no way. And none of us have any hand to hand combat training.

    So you know... as a teenager I was on the losing side of a 1v5 and almost got a beating by a much larger group if it hadn't been for a neighbor from the army that stepped in, so I can tell you how serious a situation like this is even without a gun involved.

    I honestly think that the correct mentality is to not want to use your weapon and for it to be the last resort. And I don't think the OP understands that fact.

  6. #105
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    State of Confusion
    Posts
    7,733
    Quote Originally Posted by localgirl View Post
    Dude, that's MY move.

    And seriously, I'm just gonna put this out there...if you all want to engage in debate and actually go somewhere that isn't the playground, attack the IDEA not the PERSON. You don't really know the people here, just the ideas they write about.
    :-)

    Some of these guys should marry each other. They're fightin like an old couple.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  7. #106
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    State of Confusion
    Posts
    7,733
    Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall View Post
    According to the laws of most (if not all) states, if you're a healthy adult male, the threat of bare fists does not justify deadly force as a defensive measure. I'd venture to say that this applies in 99% of all such cases, certainly including the incident involving the OPer. In the eyes of the law, we're expected to take a bare-knuckle beating.

    Personally, I understand the idea of drawing-down on somebody who's enraged and screaming threats from just a few feet away. In a critical situation like that our first instinct is to go with our best, surest defense. For CCers, that's often our pistol. The law doesn't see it that way, like it or not.

    From a self defense standpoint, the problem with drawing in that situation is that it effectively takes any options other than shooting off the table should the BG choose to press home his attack. Blind rage, drugs/alcohol, mental instability, etc. could mean the perp just doesn't care about your gun. Now you pretty much have to shoot him....what else are you going to do?? He's only a few feet away and will be on you in an instant. And then you know what happens??? You go to jail facing some very serious charges. Just last night on the TV program "The First 48", a man was convicted of 2nd degree manslaughter because he shot and killed somebody who had run up on him at night, yelling at him with his arm outstretched. Turns out the dead guy didn't have a weapon and was probably just pointing his finger. I watch that program regularly and it was the first time I ever felt sympathy for a shooter on the show. Perfect example of what might happen if you draw on somebody who "might" be a "potential" threat.

    And if he backs off?? Well, as our OPer found out, from a legal standpoint you may very well be at the whim of the thug who created this situation (and possibly at the whim of an anti-gun prosecutor or judge). The OPer is exceptionally lucky the guy didn't show up for court.

    The bottom line is that you need to know the law and follow it whether you like it or not. If you choose not to then be prepared to face the consequences.
    Interesting info. What most posters don't realize is that when a person claims justification of defense his/her actions are based on the standard of the reasonable person. This is the yardstick by which a grand jury (or jury) will determine if the response was appropriate based on the the situation. There is no standard definition for the reasonable person. A senior citizen may incur a deadly beating from a healthy, strong, young male. S/He may use deadly force sooner than another healthy, young, strong male. A woman may use it sooner against a male attacker. As Panheadzz mentioned, he has had a heart attack and can't defend himself as when he was young. So one must now consider the standard of the reasonable person who is disabled, eldery, smaller, female, unarmed, etc. All of this goes into the equation.

    In NY one may use deadly force to stop the imminent use of deadly force, to thwart a burglary, an arson of real property, a kidnapping, sexual criminal act or an assault of such nature that significant or permanent injury will likely occur. Thus an eldery or disabled person doesn't have to take a bare-knuckle beating from a young man as it endangers their health, will likely cause significant injury and may cause death.

    Each situation is different and the actions of the defender must be weighed against the facts surrounding the situation, the capability and intent of the attacker as well as the state and capability of the victim. Also was there a duty to retreat, was a retreat attempted or was the victim unable to safely retreat. Each state law may differ in these details. This is among the hardest concepts we teach in PP classes. We can't tell someone when it's time to shoot but rather can teach them the skills to prevail should the need arise.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  8. #107
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Pasco, Washington, United States
    Posts
    6,271
    Quote Originally Posted by Warbirds:244238
    per your comments. I do not think it is reasonable in a 1v4 encounter when you have the advantage of numbers to claim you are afraid for your safety and that if your friends. I can tell you with 100% certainty my response would have been to say "Are you effing kidding me". Now if he had pulled a weapon that would have changed. It also would have been different had I been with my family or others that could not defend themselves. But 1v4 with my guy friends, no way. And none of us have any hand to hand combat training.
    The 1v4 incident was a prior incident. The OP recent incident involved him, his friend, friends pregnant girlfriend. There was a parked car with his friends friends (would you expect them to help a stranger?). So in essence it was a 1v1. I wouldn't expect his friend to help, but to get the girlfriend out of there.

  9. Wow you guys are at war. Chen is the OPs unofficially bodyguard haha. I think the most important thing here is that the OP walks away from this learning a lesson. No matter what your instructor told you or what you believe is right and wrong, drawing your gun comes with HUGE risks. Even totally justified our justice system is far from perfect, especially self defense cases. Even a knife wielding maniac will have a lawsuit against you, its actually very sad what we have to go through to defend ourselves. Just remember, drawing that firearm can land you in jail, even permanently. Go through these scenarios and decide what its going to take for you to draw. I'm 6'3 240 pounds of pure chub so I've completely scratched 1on1 fist fight off the board, even if I get my butt handed to me. It's still just to risky in my opinion, unless I'm getting curb checked or something. That's another reason I carry a .380, its easier to handle in those situations.

    I'm sorry your getting attacked so much and if I come off as a jerk I'm sorry for that also. Just take from this experience what you can and make the best of it. I really hope you take what I've said to heart, I'd hate for an innocent person to serve life for protecting himself. It really has to be a last resort

  10. #109
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    SE Florida
    Posts
    1,880
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    Interesting info. What most posters don't realize is that when a person claims justification of defense his/her actions are based on the standard of the reasonable person. This is the yardstick by which a grand jury (or jury) will determine if the response was appropriate based on the the situation. There is no standard definition for the reasonable person. A senior citizen may incur a deadly beating from a healthy, strong, young male. S/He may use deadly force sooner than another healthy, young, strong male. A woman may use it sooner against a male attacker. As Panheadzz mentioned, he has had a heart attack and can't defend himself as when he was young. So one must now consider the standard of the reasonable person who is disabled, eldery, smaller, female, unarmed, etc. All of this goes into the equation.
    I fully understand that there are sometimes mitigating circumstances, but I was speaking with respect to the OPers experience. As I pointed out on my first post in this thread, he's not elderly, disabled, a woman, etc. and therefore could not use any of that as an excuse for his actions in court.

    Had the punk showed up for the trial, I can imagine what the prosecutor would ask the OPer:

    DA: Was the man who allegedly threatened you alone??
    OP: Yes sir.

    DA: Didn't you have a friend there with you??
    OP: Yes sir.

    DA: Did the man have a weapon in his hands?? Did you see a weapon??
    OP: No sir. None that I could see.

    DA: To your knowledge, was he a trained fighter??
    OP: Not to my knowledge.

    DA: Are you a trained fighter??
    OP: Yes sir.

    Not looking good for the OPer. Too many other options to take before whipping out the iron. I don't believe the law would have been at all sympathetic.
    (Insert random tough-guy quote here)
    "See my gun?? Aren't you impressed?" - Anonymous sheepdog
    The hardware is the same, but the software is vastly different.

  11. #110
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Honolulu, HI & Salt Lake City, UT
    Posts
    2,797
    Quote Originally Posted by Cotillion View Post
    ....Even a knife wielding maniac will have a lawsuit against you....
    Not exactly true. A knife is considered a "deadly weapon", therefore if you can articulate that the aggressor is intending to inflict serious bodily injury or attempting to kill you, then "deadly force" is justified.
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

Page 11 of 14 FirstFirst ... 910111213 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Quantcast