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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Green View Post
    I'm familiar with the incident. He was justified. That's why he wasn't prosecuted. Again, do either of you know anything *at all* about the legal use of deadly force? It appears not. All I see are a couple of untrained yahoos with far too much ego invested in carrying a gun. Obviously compensating for something. Some anger issues too. It's people like you who make me feel more gun control might actually be a good thing.
    As an instructor we see Darwin at work regularly. Lot's of Rambos. Lot's of stupidity. Lot's of chimpanzee's in oversize sneakers trying to move and shoot. Starts making one think that not everyone is cut out for this.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1:244442
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Green View Post
    I'm familiar with the incident. He was justified. That's why he wasn't prosecuted. Again, do either of you know anything *at all* about the legal use of deadly force? It appears not. All I see are a couple of untrained yahoos with far too much ego invested in carrying a gun. Obviously compensating for something. Some anger issues too. It's people like you who make me feel more gun control might actually be a good thing.
    As an instructor we see Darwin at work regularly. Lot's of Rambos. Lot's of stupidity. Lot's of chimpanzee's in oversize sneakers trying to move and shoot. Starts making one think that not everyone is cut out for this.
    Those that would give up essential freedom for temporary security, deserve neither freedom or security. Darwinism does not work for the human race, we have evolved past survival and have a set of morals the rest of the animal kingdom do not have. But since you want to bring up evolution, mutation, natural selection, or survival of the fittest, I have not heard of any animal surviving very long if it waited till the attacker sunk claws or teeth into them. You two need to check your stance on the 2nd amendment. Those that do not want guns and would not throw a punch to get their way are not the problem. It's those that do not want guns except for themselves. The 2nd amendment is an essential freedom, and if you do not want that for your fellow citizen, you do not deserve it either.

    As an instructor, everyone holds you to higher moral ground. Calling people rambos, stupid, and chimpanzee's is disrepectful to all the other instructors. I never hear Ayoob or other higher caliber instructors calling their fellow law abiding carriers insulting names, and maybe that is why you will never reach that podium. That's a shame too, because we all have the ability to become something great, but we choose to lower ourselves.

  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    Those that would give up essential freedom for temporary security, deserve neither freedom or security. Darwinism does not work for the human race, we have evolved past survival and have a set of morals the rest of the animal kingdom do not have. But since you want to bring up evolution, mutation, natural selection, or survival of the fittest, I have not heard of any animal surviving very long if it waited till the attacker sunk claws or teeth into them. You two need to check your stance on the 2nd amendment. Those that do not want guns and would not throw a punch to get their way are not the problem. It's those that do not want guns except for themselves. The 2nd amendment is an essential freedom, and if you do not want that for your fellow citizen, you do not deserve it either.

    As an instructor, everyone holds you to higher moral ground. Calling people rambos, stupid, and chimpanzee's is disrepectful to all the other instructors. I never hear Ayoob or other higher caliber instructors calling their fellow law abiding carriers insulting names, and maybe that is why you will never reach that podium. That's a shame too, because we all have the ability to become something great, but we choose to lower ourselves.
    My stance on the second amendment is what the high court interprets it as; as ALL law is. Not your opinion or anyone who likes your post. The second amendment allows that reasonable restrictions may be placed on violent offenders, those with psychiactric disorders, those with mental retardation, those who pose a grave danger to others. I'm not losing my life on that firing line.

    Now I posted a thread some time ago about a student that had to be removed from my range for looking down the barrel of his gun, twice. Roughly 75 responders, most of them instructors, advised I was too lenient. Some even thought I should have had the permit pulled. I didn't do that. In fact I stopped his arrest by one of my instructors so he wouldn't lose his permit. Even NavyLtCmdr thought I was too lenient (an opinion I value highly). I only hope someday I don't hear he looked down the barrel and unintentionally shot himself. Some USA Carry posters were present in that class. Have a read --> http://www.usacarry.com/forums/instr...ns-sought.html

    The truth is that some ARE Rambos, some lack dexterity to the point of danger, some are destructive. So an instructor can't say it? I'll tell you what... become an instructor, teach tactical and PP classes for a few years and then respond based on experience. After a few years as a trainer you'll see more wacky behavior than one might believe. Mistakes can be corrected. Flakes cannot. All of our instructors are required to wear a vest for a reason. As the Chief RSO at my facility, I can't always be present to watch things. It's a "HOT" range and is "self-policed." When the grounds are empty, the Rambos and those without a brain shoot out the range spotlights, electrical boxes, distance markers and range rule signs. Many days I arrive to find glass bottles shot all over the infield. They hammer the pistol target stands with OO bucksot blasting the frames to hell. The behavior is dangerous, it's destructive, it's costly, it's illegal, it causes the grounds crew a lot of work.

    I don't care much what anyone thinks of my comment... it stands... and we have the holes in the wall to prove it. I have to stand on that range and train people. I'm not getting shot by someone with repeated safety violations. I'm not putting my instructors in harm's way either. And to go a step farther, when my instructor sees repeated gross safety violations despite corrective measures, he is instructed to pull the student. If there's any show of anger or crazy behavior when the student is dismissed the gun will be taken and an arrest may be effected. Period. Are you kidding? Instructors can't fool around with this stuff or we'll be taking a dirt nap. Chen, all my students are treated with respect on the range and in my classrooms. We take lengthy steps to ensure everyone masters the skills and drills. But see, this is a chat board, not the range. We're allowed to have a little fun here.

    BTW, in years passed I took two classes at LFI, one with Mas. Neglingently discharge one in his class and you're gone.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  5. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1:244839
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    Those that would give up essential freedom for temporary security, deserve neither freedom or security. Darwinism does not work for the human race, we have evolved past survival and have a set of morals the rest of the animal kingdom do not have. But since you want to bring up evolution, mutation, natural selection, or survival of the fittest, I have not heard of any animal surviving very long if it waited till the attacker sunk claws or teeth into them. You two need to check your stance on the 2nd amendment. Those that do not want guns and would not throw a punch to get their way are not the problem. It's those that do not want guns except for themselves. The 2nd amendment is an essential freedom, and if you do not want that for your fellow citizen, you do not deserve it either.

    As an instructor, everyone holds you to higher moral ground. Calling people rambos, stupid, and chimpanzee's is disrepectful to all the other instructors. I never hear Ayoob or other higher caliber instructors calling their fellow law abiding carriers insulting names, and maybe that is why you will never reach that podium. That's a shame too, because we all have the ability to become something great, but we choose to lower ourselves.
    My stance on the second amendment is what the high court interprets it as; as ALL law is. Not your opinion or anyone who likes your post. The second amendment allows that reasonable restrictions may be placed on violent offenders, those with psychiactric disorders, those with mental retardation, those who pose a grave danger to others. I'm not losing my life on that firing line.

    Now I posted a thread some time ago about a student that had to be removed from my range for looking down the barrel of his gun, twice. Roughly 75 responders, most of them instructors, advised I was too lenient. Some even thought I should have had the permit pulled. I didn't do that. In fact I stopped his arrest by one of my instructors so he wouldn't lose his permit. Even NavyLtCmdr thought I was too lenient (an opinion I value highly). I only hope someday I don't hear he looked down the barrel and unintentionally shot himself. Some USA Carry posters were present in that class. Have a read --> http://www.usacarry.com/forums/instr...ns-sought.html

    The truth is that some ARE Rambos, some lack dexterity to the point of danger, some are destructive. So an instructor can't say it? I'll tell you what... become an instructor, teach tactical and PP classes for a few years and then respond based on experience. After a few years as a trainer you'll see more wacky behavior than one might believe. Mistakes can be corrected. Flakes cannot. All of our instructors are required to wear a vest for a reason. As the Chief RSO at my facility, I can't always be present to watch things. It's a "HOT" range and is "self-policed." When the grounds are empty, the Rambos and those without a brain shoot out the range spotlights, electrical boxes, distance markers and range rule signs. Many days I arrive to find glass bottles shot all over the infield. They hammer the pistol target stands with OO bucksot blasting the frames to hell. The behavior is dangerous, it's destructive, it's costly, it's illegal, it causes the grounds crew a lot of work.

    I don't care much what anyone thinks of my comment... it stands... and we have the holes in the wall to prove it. I have to stand on that range and train people. I'm not getting shot by someone with repeated safety violations. I'm not putting my instructors in harm's way either. And to go a step farther, when my instructor sees repeated gross safety violations despite corrective measures, he is instructed to pull the student. If there's any show of anger or crazy behavior when the student is dismissed the gun will be taken and an arrest may be effected. Period. Are you kidding? Instructors can't fool around with this stuff or we'll be taking a dirt nap. Chen, all my students are treated with respect on the range and in my classrooms. We take lengthy steps to ensure everyone masters the skills and drills. But see, this is a chat board, not the range. We're allowed to have a little fun here.

    BTW, in years passed I took two classes at LFI, one with Mas. Neglingently discharge one in his class and you're gone.
    Thank you for a well thought out post. I didn't want to reply rashly and so late, so i spent the night thinking about my response and this is what I have come to.


    The 2nd amendment does not allow any reasonable restrictions. The higher courts have stated in Heller and McDonald that it is an individuals right and choice to carry a firearm. I believe in, "shall not be infringed." Convicted violent offenders lost that right, and all their others rights when they were convicted. As for the other two groups, phsyciatric and retardation, they account for such an insignifcant percentage of firearm owners and firearm incidents, trying to reasonably restrict firearms for them only hinders the majority of us without having a significant affect on the problem. Look at Virginia Tech. They thought it was common sense that students shouldn't have guns, and so they reasonably regulated it. Did it stop a phsyciatric patient from starting a killing spree? No. Who did it stop? The law abiding carrying students. It is a slippery slope to regulate a God given right.

    Safety and insulting are not related. There is nothing wrong with you being safe, and keeping your instructors safe. This however does not excuse lowering yourself to insulting. You know there are irresponsible people in this world, you know how to deal with them. You were right to kick out the person who looked down his barrel twice. You would be right to kick out anyone that was acting unsafe at your range. If in your class you feel a student has made a mistake that is correctable, then you will instruct them. If you feel they have made a dangerous mistake repeatedly with no indication they will become safe, then yes you should kick them out. Is it wrong to bring them up as a point on dangerous gun handling? No, it's a great example to teach your students the importance of safety. Yes this is a chat board, but do any of those reasons excuse insulting? Does insulting help anyone improve anywhere? Maybe belittling is fun for you, but it is not fun for me. I can only imagine what it would be like to sit near a table with you instructors as you were talking about the destructive behaviour. If I heard you guys talking about irresponsible gun owners and their destructive behaviour, and how you were going to try and find out who it was and try to stop it, I would assume you were a respectful person. If I heard you talk about the stupid chimpanzee's making a mess of the place, my view would be much lower. Now I do not know you in real life, and you stated this is a chat board, and I would hope you do not speak exactly the same in person as you did here. I try and speak the same here as I would face to face.

    While I do not instruct firearms, or train formally as much as I would want, I have instructed and trained in fire and rescue for a long time. Both our professions involve life and death situations. I too have come across irresponsible fire fighters. I hold a much higher respect for those that can instruct, which includes criticism, without having to lower themselves to insulting. What happens to a fire fighter that practices dangerously after being repeatedly told otherwise? The same as your students, they get booted. What happens after that in my class? We move on to what's important, improving. Those that can't get past insulting remind me of those that can't talk without swearing every 3rd word.

    To tie this back into the OP. I see a lot of flak going towards the OP becuase he escalated the situation by drawing his firearm. How does insulting help de escalate a situation? If people have no problem insulting their students or fellow law abiding carriers, what is going to hold them back from insulting a low life criminal? Should the OP have told the guy charging him he is a stupid chimp that is obviously compensating for something? I come onto this board to have fun and post my opinion, but more importantly I come here to learn, and hope that some of my life lessons and knowledge can help someone else learn. I just hope those that come here to learn don't read insulting remarks and feel that it is ok to insult those that are offending them, and then take it out into the real world.

  6. If you've had that many "self defense" situations at that age then you need think more about your judgement than getting a proper holster. Stop putting yourself in those situations.

  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    Thank you for a well thought out post. I didn't want to reply rashly and so late, so i spent the night thinking about my response and this is what I have come to.


    The 2nd amendment does not allow any reasonable restrictions. The higher courts have stated in Heller and McDonald that it is an individuals right and choice to carry a firearm. I believe in, "shall not be infringed." Convicted violent offenders lost that right, and all their others rights when they were convicted. As for the other two groups, phsyciatric and retardation, they account for such an insignifcant percentage of firearm owners and firearm incidents, trying to reasonably restrict firearms for them only hinders the majority of us without having a significant affect on the problem. Look at Virginia Tech. They thought it was common sense that students shouldn't have guns, and so they reasonably regulated it. Did it stop a phsyciatric patient from starting a killing spree? No. Who did it stop? The law abiding carrying students. It is a slippery slope to regulate a God given right.

    Safety and insulting are not related. There is nothing wrong with you being safe, and keeping your instructors safe. This however does not excuse lowering yourself to insulting. You know there are irresponsible people in this world, you know how to deal with them. You were right to kick out the person who looked down his barrel twice. You would be right to kick out anyone that was acting unsafe at your range. If in your class you feel a student has made a mistake that is correctable, then you will instruct them. If you feel they have made a dangerous mistake repeatedly with no indication they will become safe, then yes you should kick them out. Is it wrong to bring them up as a point on dangerous gun handling? No, it's a great example to teach your students the importance of safety. Yes this is a chat board, but do any of those reasons excuse insulting? Does insulting help anyone improve anywhere? Maybe belittling is fun for you, but it is not fun for me. I can only imagine what it would be like to sit near a table with you instructors as you were talking about the destructive behaviour. If I heard you guys talking about irresponsible gun owners and their destructive behaviour, and how you were going to try and find out who it was and try to stop it, I would assume you were a respectful person. If I heard you talk about the stupid chimpanzee's making a mess of the place, my view would be much lower. Now I do not know you in real life, and you stated this is a chat board, and I would hope you do not speak exactly the same in person as you did here. I try and speak the same here as I would face to face.

    While I do not instruct firearms, or train formally as much as I would want, I have instructed and trained in fire and rescue for a long time. Both our professions involve life and death situations. I too have come across irresponsible fire fighters. I hold a much higher respect for those that can instruct, which includes criticism, without having to lower themselves to insulting. What happens to a fire fighter that practices dangerously after being repeatedly told otherwise? The same as your students, they get booted. What happens after that in my class? We move on to what's important, improving. Those that can't get past insulting remind me of those that can't talk without swearing every 3rd word.

    To tie this back into the OP. I see a lot of flak going towards the OP becuase he escalated the situation by drawing his firearm. How does insulting help de escalate a situation? If people have no problem insulting their students or fellow law abiding carriers, what is going to hold them back from insulting a low life criminal? Should the OP have told the guy charging him he is a stupid chimp that is obviously compensating for something? I come onto this board to have fun and post my opinion, but more importantly I come here to learn, and hope that some of my life lessons and knowledge can help someone else learn. I just hope those that come here to learn don't read insulting remarks and feel that it is ok to insult those that are offending them, and then take it out into the real world.
    I'm sure we'll find out soon enough. If we ask nicely, I'm sure the OP will let us know how things worked out the next time he has a violent confrontation like this.
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

  8. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    Thank you for a well thought out post. I didn't want to reply rashly and so late, so i spent the night thinking about my response and this is what I have come to.


    The 2nd amendment does not allow any reasonable restrictions. The higher courts have stated in Heller and McDonald that it is an individuals right and choice to carry a firearm. I believe in, "shall not be infringed." Convicted violent offenders lost that right, and all their others rights when they were convicted. As for the other two groups, phsyciatric and retardation, they account for such an insignifcant percentage of firearm owners and firearm incidents, trying to reasonably restrict firearms for them only hinders the majority of us without having a significant affect on the problem. Look at Virginia Tech. They thought it was common sense that students shouldn't have guns, and so they reasonably regulated it. Did it stop a phsyciatric patient from starting a killing spree? No. Who did it stop? The law abiding carrying students. It is a slippery slope to regulate a God given right.

    Safety and insulting are not related. There is nothing wrong with you being safe, and keeping your instructors safe. This however does not excuse lowering yourself to insulting. You know there are irresponsible people in this world, you know how to deal with them. You were right to kick out the person who looked down his barrel twice. You would be right to kick out anyone that was acting unsafe at your range. If in your class you feel a student has made a mistake that is correctable, then you will instruct them. If you feel they have made a dangerous mistake repeatedly with no indication they will become safe, then yes you should kick them out. Is it wrong to bring them up as a point on dangerous gun handling? No, it's a great example to teach your students the importance of safety. Yes this is a chat board, but do any of those reasons excuse insulting? Does insulting help anyone improve anywhere? Maybe belittling is fun for you, but it is not fun for me. I can only imagine what it would be like to sit near a table with you instructors as you were talking about the destructive behaviour. If I heard you guys talking about irresponsible gun owners and their destructive behaviour, and how you were going to try and find out who it was and try to stop it, I would assume you were a respectful person. If I heard you talk about the stupid chimpanzee's making a mess of the place, my view would be much lower. Now I do not know you in real life, and you stated this is a chat board, and I would hope you do not speak exactly the same in person as you did here. I try and speak the same here as I would face to face.

    While I do not instruct firearms, or train formally as much as I would want, I have instructed and trained in fire and rescue for a long time. Both our professions involve life and death situations. I too have come across irresponsible fire fighters. I hold a much higher respect for those that can instruct, which includes criticism, without having to lower themselves to insulting. What happens to a fire fighter that practices dangerously after being repeatedly told otherwise? The same as your students, they get booted. What happens after that in my class? We move on to what's important, improving. Those that can't get past insulting remind me of those that can't talk without swearing every 3rd word.

    To tie this back into the OP. I see a lot of flak going towards the OP becuase he escalated the situation by drawing his firearm. How does insulting help de escalate a situation? If people have no problem insulting their students or fellow law abiding carriers, what is going to hold them back from insulting a low life criminal? Should the OP have told the guy charging him he is a stupid chimp that is obviously compensating for something? I come onto this board to have fun and post my opinion, but more importantly I come here to learn, and hope that some of my life lessons and knowledge can help someone else learn. I just hope those that come here to learn don't read insulting remarks and feel that it is ok to insult those that are offending them, and then take it out into the real world.
    Chen, the chimp in oversized sneakers was me. Did you know that? I won't bore posters with the story behind it but it was funny. Thanks for defending me from myself though. Now as far as stupid? Darwinism is alive and well at the range. As far as Rambo? Just look at some of the posts on this site alone. Tell me you don't read some absolutely crazy stuff. This behavior extends to the range.

    So now an instructor can't joke around about the wackos off the range without someone pulling political correctness out of the crapper. Just about the ONLY person who CAN make such jokes are the instructors and range officers that put themselves in harm's way so shooters can learn and be licensed. Your argument is like watching a healthy person make handicapped jokes. You gotta be handicapped
    to understand.

    Look at my posts. I don't belittle anyone. Always respectful posts. Never presume to understand a man's nature or anything about him. And don't play with matches ;-)
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  9. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    The higher courts have stated in Heller and McDonald that it is an individuals right and choice to carry a firearm.
    Not to be nitpicky, but Heller affirmed that it is an individual right to possess a firearm. The SCOTUS stopped short of affirming the right to carry.

    And McDonald affirmed that the 2nd amendment applies at the state level, as well as the Federal level. Again, it did not address the right to carry.

  10. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by billwot View Post
    Not to be nitpicky, but Heller affirmed that it is an individual right to possess a firearm. The SCOTUS stopped short of affirming the right to carry.

    And McDonald affirmed that the 2nd amendment applies at the state level, as well as the Federal level. Again, it did not address the right to carry.
    Exactly. Billwot understands the high court's decision. For example, in NYC you can get a permit to own a handgun. Can't carry it though. They are not in violation of the second because they don't deny the right to posses/own the firearm. Now Bloomburg would love to eliminate ownership but he's smart enough to know that action steps over the line.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  11. #130
    "Originally Posted by Firefighterchen: The higher courts have stated in Heller and McDonald that it is an individuals right and choice to carry a firearm."

    Such a statement is pure ignorance. That's why guys like you crack me up. Not only don't they know their local laws regarding use of force, they're even clueless about the big decisions.

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