Denny's "no guns allowed" signs seem to be working. - Page 5
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Thread: Denny's "no guns allowed" signs seem to be working.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-fa...6.0-screen.pdf

    Pages 19-21 contain very enlightening information. Especially this little tidbit on Page 21:

    Fact: The probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women
    offering no resistance than for women resisting with guns. Men also benefit from using
    guns but the benefits are smaller, 1.4 times more likely to receive a serious injury.



    The statistics (from the Department of Justice in this case) show that I am 1.4 times more likely to receive a serious injury in a criminal attack if I offer no resistence than if I resist by using a gun. Good thing I am not a woman, "give them what they want" would increase my chances of serious injury by 2.5 times.

    So much for the "give them what they want" theory.
    That's pretty interesting stuff. Unfortunately it has absolutely nothing to do with the Denny's scenario. The business was being robbed. The gun owner was not being attacked.

  2.   
  3. Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare45 View Post
    If BG starts shooting bullets have no respect for age or anything else, if my family is having lunch three boys and wife, that is five of us armed. Dennys is laywer driven, my family is not, I will protect them.
    And, by the time you wait and see IF the bad guy, who already has gun in hand, is going to start shooting or not, if the bad guy does start shooting, you are now that much more behind the power curve, especially if you have to put down your cell phone to draw your gun!
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare45 View Post
    If BG starts shooting bullets have no respect for age or anything else, if my family is having lunch three boys and wife, that is five of us armed. Dennys is laywer driven, my family is not, I will protect them.
    Exactly right- I agree. If the BG is shooting I would seek cover and/or concealment if available and return fire. Also, if things develop into a hostage situation I'd fire regardless of whether the BG fired first or not.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Rich_S View Post
    That's pretty interesting stuff. Unfortunately it has absolutely nothing to do with the Denny's scenario. The business was being robbed. The gun owner was not being attacked.
    However, the gun owner was under imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death, as was everyone else in the restaurant.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Rich_S View Post
    Exactly right- I agree. If the BG is shooting I would seek cover and/or concealment if available and return fire. Also, if things develop into a hostage situation I'd fire regardless of whether the BG fired first or not.
    So you would endager everyone around you and endanger any hostages in order to return fire. Nice job, RAMBO.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    However, the gun owner was under imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death, as was everyone else in the restaurant.
    He may or may not have been. The only people who know for sure are the people who were there.

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    So you would endager everyone around you and endanger any hostages in order to return fire. Nice job, RAMBO.
    Now you're just being a jackass and you know it.

    But.....I'll bite: What's your answer to that scenario?

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Rich_S View Post
    Now you're just being a jackass and you know it.

    But.....I'll bite: What's your answer to that scenario?
    Here's the deal. Two guys walk into a nearly deserted Denny's restaurant at 5:50am carrying firearms. Joe citizen now has a little bit less stress and a little bit more time to evaluate the situation. Are there bystanders in the line of fire? Is there cover or at least concealment available? The criminals are likely to be most concerned about getting what they can quickly and quietly and getting the heck out of there. The all powerful "element of surprise" is in favor of the customer with the gun.

    The customer with the gun has no idea what will happen next. The criminals may take the money and run. The criminals may get the money and shoot all the witnesses. A cop or anybody else might walk through the door and the criminals might start shooting. A siren might be heard in the distance and they criminals might grab a bystander for a hostage. The situation could change in any number of ways in the matter of a split second.

    If the situation does change, the customer with the gun cannot possibly predict how. That is why it is vitally important to take defensive action during the time frame that the customer with the gun has available while the situation remains as evaluted. Cover and/or concealment availalbe. Clear shot available. Criminals not expecting to be fired upon. Chances are much greater for a successful defensive attack when the defender has a full evaluation of the situation, and the situation is currently stable.

    Once "all hell breaks loose" the situation will be changing every fraction of a second. It is just not tactically sound to wait until the attack is in full swing before beginning a defensive attack. Especially in the restaurant robbery scenario where once the initial entry is made and no immediate resistence is met, it is very likely that the criminals were expecting no resistence to be offered.

    Once the criminals start shooting the primary goal becomes seeking cover rather than returning fire. Sure, return fire on the way to obtaining cover, but when being fired upon the first and primary goal becomes to gain safe cover from the enemy fire and if safe cover can be obtained without returning fire, it is better to do so. Let the criminals shoot their bullets while you are safely behind cover. That increases the chance they will run out of rounds before you do.

    You contradict yourself, Rich_S. You say you would not defend a perfect stranger, then a few posts later you say you will start shooting if hostages are taken. The idea of returning fire immediately when being fired upon is best left to the RAMBO movies.

    It is most tactically sound to begin a defensive attack before the aggressors expect it, and before the aggressor's attack is in full motion.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  10. BTW, the law in Washington state completely justifies the customer using deadly force in the Denny's scenario:

    RCW 9A.16.050
    Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished;
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  11. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_S View Post
    To defend myself and my family. How about you?
    I agree with NavyLCDR, why carry it then? Suppose you were walking through a city park late at night and you came across a woman getting raped, beaten and threatened with a knife what would you do, walk on by because it's no immediate threat to you and you are worried about a lawsuit and then come to learn the woman dies later from a knife wound you could've prevented or would you step in a save the woman's life because you had the means to stop a violent act. You could in effect shoot the bastard in the leg to stop the action and then make a citizens arrest etc. I believe as citizens legally carrying concealed weapons we all may be obliged (within reason and using good judgement) to help those whose lives may be in danger and if you are not willing to do that you may want to reconsider carrying a weapon.
    "Those who would trade liberty for security, deserves neither liberty nor security."
    "The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson".

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