Being A Permit Holder Does NOT Make You A Cop
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Thread: Being A Permit Holder Does NOT Make You A Cop

  1. #1
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    Being A Permit Holder Does NOT Make You A Cop

    I’ve talked about this before but I think it’s important enough to repeat.
    There’s an attitude that I’ve noticed both on the internet and among some permit holders that I’ve come in contact with that holding a CHP makes you an auxiliary cop.
    This was actually posted on THR by a user named Egon

    we're all LEO's
    ________________________________________
    In some way, we're all LEO's. We all have the responsibility to help uphold the law, to help those around us, and to be there for the general good of society. We just might not draw as often (hopefully) as the local PD does.
    we're all LEO's - THR

    As a private citizen I have a responsibility to obey the law, not uphold it and not enforce it.

    I’m not sure what drives this attitude among those who have it but I think it’s very dangerous because, as I’ve stated in other threads, it leads to armed people walking around just waiting for their chance to be a hero and in pursuit of that chance it leads to armed people interjecting themselves into situations they are not equipped or trained to handle.

    I remember a story I read a few years back on a forum about a guy that left his house and went over to a neighbor’s house with his gun (that he had to find and load) to confront someone sitting in a car, on a public street and almost went to jail for it when the "miscreant" turned out to be the neighbor’s kid who was twisting one up with a friend. (still not your business)

    I worked with a guy that used to put on his security guard uniform and “patrol the neighborhood” on the Fourth of July to catch people using illegal fireworks.

    There used to be a group of vigilantes in Colorado Springs who called themselves the “Citizen’s CB Patrol” that spent their nights driving around the Southgate/ Stratton Meadows (AKA Stratton Ghettos) neighborhood “patrolling the neighborhood” in black BDUs while open carrying. Say what you want about OC these guys were doing it for the intimidation factor.

    Unfortunately, when these folks post stories of their exploits online and get called on their behavior they tend to get defensive rather than learn from their mistake. They claim an obligation to “protect” their fellow man (I am your fellow man and I neither need nor want your protection) and call those who disagree with their philosophy “cowards” or imply that because we wouldn’t intervene in a bank robbery that we’d stand by and watch their wives beaten, their daughters raped or their homes pillaged but thank Gawd that a “sheep dog” like them was around to save ours.

    I was hopping to conclude this post with some great, well thought out, explanation of why this mindset is dangerous and should be abandoned but I realize that most people don’t like to be corrected and don’t want to hear y my suggestions anyway.

    So, instead I’ll close with a request that if you have this mindset you not try to “uphold the law” around me.
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

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  3. #2
    I agree. I carry concealed, and though I would indeed help someone who life was in IMEDIATE danger, I would call the PD & let them deal with everything else. The "obligation" we have as carriers is just that, to help others who's life is in IMEDIATE danger- or not if you have not been trained in such things. I have drawn on someone once in the 25 yrs I've been carrying, & that was when a fight in our apt complex turned almost deadly. One guy beat up another guy. (I did nothing) but when the victim was unconscious, he began stomping on his head. I then thought his life was immediate danger, therefore I drew and shouted at him to stop or I would shoot & the guy stopped the assault. I then immediately called the police. Since the attacker left, I could only give a description and what apartment he came out of. I have had trained in situations like this, and was completely aware of the legal ramifications of my actions. Others in my situation might feel that all they can do is call the police, and that is perfectly fine.
    Hell, most people don't even realize that the police do not have a duty to protect anyone. (Supreme court ruling) Thx & be safe

  4. I believe carrying brings on a completely different set of responsibilities, both that concern my safety as well as the safety of others.

    If I am not carrying and I see some sort of violence, I may be inclined to step in and distance the two, of course after notifying the PD. This comes with circumstances, with nothing being black and white. Depending on the circumstances and "feel" of the fight, I may leave it be.

    If I'm carrying, I feel it is my obligation to avoid an already escalated confrontation, as me joining in at any level introduces a firearm and potential for further escalation.

    As barbaric as it is, people have solved differences with violence for a long time. Sometimes that's just the way its gonna play out. Most people will take/give their punches and that's that, others feel the need to go further. If someone is unconscious or has obviously given up, yet the other keeps at it with obvious intent to kill, that would be the only point I would draw.

    Too many variables and factors to take into consideration for any confrontation, just like the recent thread about the man's wife drawing at Walmart. The post explained the situation but cannot convey the atmosphere. Whether someone likes to admit it or not, those feelings play into those decisions just as much as what's visibly happening.

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    There’s an attitude that I’ve noticed both on the internet and among some permit holders that I’ve come in contact with that holding a CHP makes you an auxiliary cop.

    I’m not sure what drives this attitude among those who have it but I think it’s very dangerous because, as I’ve stated in other threads, it leads to armed people walking around just waiting for their chance to be a hero and in pursuit of that chance it leads to armed people interjecting themselves into situations they are not equipped or trained to handle.

    I worked with a guy that used to put on his security guard uniform and “patrol the neighborhood” on the Fourth of July to catch people using illegal fireworks.

    There used to be a group of vigilantes in Colorado Springs . . .

    So, instead I’ll close with a request that if you have this mindset you not try to “uphold the law” around me.
    I am going to have to both agree and disagree with you. I will agree that having a concealed permit does not make one a LEO or provide any additional law-enforcement powers. I also agree with you that as a concealed permit holder we should not actively seek out dangerous situations nor should we impose our authority on others.

    I disagree however, because ALL CITIZENS of this republic have both the right and the ability to enforce and uphold the law.

    Most states permit citizen arrests if the commission of a felony is witnessed by the arresting citizen. The application of state laws varies widely with respect to misdemeanors, breaches of the peace, and felonies not witnessed by the arresting party. For example, Arizona law allows a citizen's arrest if the arrestor has personally witnessed the offense occurring.

    American citizens do not have the legal protections held by police officers, and are held to the principle of strict liability before the courts of civil and criminal law including, but not limited to, any infringement of another's rights.

    So, like most issues in life, this is a complicated and one of the many problems with our nation is this attitude of "I don't want to get involved in that, I will let the police/government take care of that for me."

    We need to be involved in our neighborhoods and our communities, but we don't want to and should not go out in public and impersonate a LEO. That does not mean we should inject ourselves into dangerous situations, but we need to maintain awareness of everything around us.

    If my choice is to be a sheep, a sheepdog or a wolf - I choose to be the sheepdog.

  6. #5
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    Oh boy Treo! Now you've done it!


    Sent from behind enemy lines.

  7. #6
    When in the capacity of armed citizen you are just that an armed citizen. Make no mistake about it though being an armed citizen does put you in a position of being held to a higher standard of care nothing more nothing less. If any thing as an armed citizen you have a greater responsibility to understand the power you hold that of a lethal force weapon to be used as a last resort, in case of emergency break glass situation. ccw, permitt, cpl, ltchg what ever name it carries does not equall mall ninja. Just my opinion.

  8. #7
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    I seen an Ad online from a CPL carrier about a year ago, requesting other CPL carriers to "band together and fight crime" he wanted to "check abandoned houses" for squatters and drug dealers. What surprised me was he was perfectly OK with committing a crime (B&E) which is made a felony simply because a firearm is involved, abandoned or not, to catch other criminals. I urged him to stop the fantasy before he gives other CPL carriers a bad name. I dont know if he ever got it off the ground, but he kept talking about not being "legit" yet, but said he was awaiting licensing or something to the effect. I feel this falls right into the same category the OP was talking about.
    Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier....One died for your soul; the other for your freedom.

  9. #8
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    Even at the risk of ruffling some feathers on here, I would say that if George Zimmerman had followed this advice, Trayvon Martin would still be alive. Argue with me if you will, but the fact remains that Zimmerman had no business exiting his vehicle that night.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

    Benjamin Franklin

  10. #9
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    I'm going to step out on a limb here and perhaps ruffle some feathers.

    I understand that carrying a gun should make you more circumspect in your dealings with other people, particularly when there may be a risk of confrontation. You don't want to escalate the situation to the extent that you have to shoot and kill someone.

    We know from earlier discussions that cops have no "Duty to protect" and most certainly will, in the majority of the cases, appear after the fact of a crime.

    Therefore, in most cases, when a crime is being perpetrated in front of witnesses, it is only ordinary citizens who are available to intervene in the situation.

    I would like to think that if some thug was beating a woman or some kid was shoplifting and some "honest" and "able" member of the public was seeing it, that they would intervene.

    I'm not suggesting heroics in the face of someone wielding a gun or knife (unless you happen to be equipped to handle such a situation). Just some sort of intervention to let the would be criminal know that it is not ok to be going down the path that they are going.

    Hell, I know of some unarmed little old ladies that have enough balls to swing their handbags at crooks, rather than let them get away with hurting people.

    If we aren't part of the solution we are part of the problem.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greggatshack View Post
    I'm going to step out on a limb here and perhaps ruffle some feathers.

    I understand that carrying a gun should make you more circumspect in your dealings with other people, particularly when there may be a risk of confrontation. You don't want to escalate the situation to the extent that you have to shoot and kill someone.

    We know from earlier discussions that cops have no "Duty to protect" and most certainly will, in the majority of the cases, appear after the fact of a crime.

    Therefore, in most cases, when a crime is being perpetrated in front of witnesses, it is only ordinary citizens who are available to intervene in the situation.

    I would like to think that if some thug was beating a woman or some kid was shoplifting and some "honest" and "able" member of the public was seeing it, that they would intervene.

    I'm not suggesting heroics in the face of someone wielding a gun or knife (unless you happen to be equipped to handle such a situation). Just some sort of intervention to let the would be criminal know that it is not ok to be going down the path that they are going.

    Hell, I know of some unarmed little old ladies that have enough balls to swing their handbags at crooks, rather than let them get away with hurting people.

    If we aren't part of the solution we are part of the problem.
    I don't think anyone would argue with you on this point. Helping someone who is being victimized is quite different from someone who isn't a cop walking around with their chest stuck out and flashing a CCW badge wanting everyone to think that they have police powers.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

    Benjamin Franklin

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