Refusing to hand over firearm at a traffic stop - MO - Page 12
Page 12 of 18 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 177

Thread: Refusing to hand over firearm at a traffic stop - MO

  1. Quote Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post
    The mere presence of a firearm does NOT constitute a danger to anyone... Hence, the cops requesting of possession of such firearms MUST have another articulable reason for doing so.. like the subject is acting/talking (body language also) very aggressively or some such thing... A holstered firearm in no way constitutes ANY danger to the cop... ESPECIALLY if HE behaves himself and doesnt try trampling on any of my rights (one of which is the right to bear arms...)which brings us right back to those pesky Title 18 section 242..... AND Elk vs US.....

    I still see 100% that the cops, WITHOUT having a valid (reasonable man/articulable) reason to confiscate or hold my firearm for the duration of the "stop" CANNOT LEGALLY do so WITHOUT my consent... Just like when I refuse to give them permission to search my vehicle, If they then DO search it WITHOUT A VALID ARTICULABE REASON to do so, they will be breaking the "law"..... One "Right" is the exact same as the other, no difference whatsoever... 2nd or 4th.... same thing... No valid reason, then it is not lawful......

    My 2nd Amendment Rights do not magically go away when some thug with a badge wants them to.......
    Unfortunately, I doubt that you would find many courts that would agree with you. Police officer has a subject legally detained with probable cause that the subject has committed a traffic infraction. Officer has no idea what the criminal history of the subject lawfully detained has or doesn't has. Officer obtains knowledge that the subject is armed. I doubt if you will find any court that would say it is unreasonable for the officer to temporarily seize that firearm until they run the check on the subject. Of course, we all know you don't care what the courts decide, you will shoot at the officer before he attempts to disarm you.

    Now, this is a completely 100% different scenario when we are talking about Joe Scmoe walking in the park open carrying a handgun in a holster. There is no reasonable suspicion for a lawful detainment in that situation.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  2.   
  3. #112
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Houston Metro Area, Texas
    Posts
    3,004
    Why would you carry ID, the supreme court just ruled you don't need it to vote, then you don't need it for lesser things. PS: Texas is a must inform state and when they run your license it shows you have a permit, you only have to inform if you have a weapon with you.

  4. #113
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    OHIO
    Posts
    2,109
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Unfortunately, I doubt that you would find many courts that would agree with you. Police officer has a subject legally detained with probable cause that the subject has committed a traffic infraction. Officer has no idea what the criminal history of the subject lawfully detained has or doesn't has. Officer obtains knowledge that the subject is armed. I doubt if you will find any court that would say it is unreasonable for the officer to temporarily seize that firearm until they run the check on the subject. Of course, we all know you don't care what the courts decide, you will shoot at the officer before he attempts to disarm you.

    Now, this is a completely 100% different scenario when we are talking about Joe Scmoe walking in the park open carrying a handgun in a holster. There is no reasonable suspicion for a lawful detainment in that situation.
    A minor traffic infraction does NOT qualify as grounds to believe that someone is dangerous....( So, your argument/side is not valid) Criminal history he knows nothing of cannot be a valid reason because it is something he does not yet know... So, where is the "articulable" part that is a requirement being satisfied? It is NOT.... so, no valid reason for disarming.... Look at the ruling in terry vs OH again... it specifically states "armed AND dangerous" not "armed OR dangerous"... Hence, it CANNOT apply here "legally" IF the cop cannot give a VALID REASON why he considers the subject dangerous to his safety then he cannot legally disarm them... Now, you and I know for a fact that the cops can ASK you all day long to give them your firearm, but they have NO LEGAL RIGHT to FORCE YOU TO.........(does depend on State laws too, some places DO have specific laws concerning this) and yes,they will probably blow a gasket and get all belligerent when you LEGALLY refuse to do so..... I know because it happened to me... and no, I didnt need to "shoot" him.... I also did NOT disarm......

    STOP cowering when you see a cop and giving in to their every demand.... (directed at no particular person here) be a man and stand up for what is right (directed at everyone here) UNTIL we stand up to them they will continue to infringe more and more until there wont be ANY rights left to defend.....

  5. #114
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    The Lowcountry of South Carolina
    Posts
    2,039
    Quote Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post
    STOP cowering when you see a cop and giving in to their every demand.... (directed at no particular person here) be a man and stand up for what is right (directed at everyone here) UNTIL we stand up to them they will continue to infringe more and more until there wont be ANY rights left to defend.....
    Alexandra45, I'm gonna go ahead and concede this point of your argument because it is important to defend our rights. I would like to stress that it must be done smartly or we are presented as the villains and defeat the intent of our actions. In my support of our rights, (and I'm not forcing this opinion on anyone) I consider the following:
    1. I recognize the authority of a cop to enforce the law. If we don't like the laws they are enforcing, that is something that we as citizens can change, but the cop plays no role in that. If the laws change, the cop will enforce whatever is in place.
    2. I don't think all cops are evil. They deal with people a lot more volatile than me, and I realize that they have to consider all possibilities, even during a mere traffic stop, to ensure they get home to their families after their shift.
    3. If they decide to take my gun out of the equation during the course of a traffic stop, I do not consider that unreasonable. I would do the same if there was ANY doubt on my part regarding my safety. I would not necessarily feel threatened by being unarmed in the presence of an officer. I honestly don't think he's gonna disarm me and then open fire, or that someone else will approach the scene and attack us both.
    4. If I was disarmed during a stop, I would consider that the perfect opportunity to express my opinion of my rights (since I am no longer a threat) and initiate a conversation with the cop on his thoughts behind his actions. Once they feel safe, they might be receptive to an opinion that differs with their own. Maybe you can help the cop compare reality with their training, which you know stresses nothing but officer safety.
    -
    Please read and consider what I have just said before lashing out at me as a weak, subservient subject of the system. If there is a substantial fight to be won regarding rights, it will not be won on the side of the road; but your actions and words on the side of the road may well cause that fight to be won or lost before it has actually begun.

  6. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by whodat2710 View Post
    Alexandra45, I'm gonna go ahead and concede this point of your argument because it is important to defend our rights. I would like to stress that it must be done smartly or we are presented as the villains and defeat the intent of our actions. In my support of our rights, (and I'm not forcing this opinion on anyone) I consider the following:
    1. I recognize the authority of a cop to enforce the law. If we don't like the laws they are enforcing, that is something that we as citizens can change, but the cop plays no role in that. If the laws change, the cop will enforce whatever is in place.
    2. I don't think all cops are evil. They deal with people a lot more volatile than me, and I realize that they have to consider all possibilities, even during a mere traffic stop, to ensure they get home to their families after their shift.
    3. If they decide to take my gun out of the equation during the course of a traffic stop, I do not consider that unreasonable. I would do the same if there was ANY doubt on my part regarding my safety. I would not necessarily feel threatened by being unarmed in the presence of an officer. I honestly don't think he's gonna disarm me and then open fire, or that someone else will approach the scene and attack us both.
    4. If I was disarmed during a stop, I would consider that the perfect opportunity to express my opinion of my rights (since I am no longer a threat) and initiate a conversation with the cop on his thoughts behind his actions. Once they feel safe, they might be receptive to an opinion that differs with their own. Maybe you can help the cop compare reality with their training, which you know stresses nothing but officer safety.
    -
    Please read and consider what I have just said before lashing out at me as a weak, subservient subject of the system. If there is a substantial fight to be won regarding rights, it will not be won on the side of the road; but your actions and words on the side of the broad may well cause that fight to be won or lost before it has actually begun.
    Just FYI, you are wasting your time trying to talk some sense into Axeanda45. He is one of those nut cases that believe the modern-day government is illegitimate and we don't have to answer to anything other than the constitution. Screw the courts and forget it's 2013, do what you want.

  7. #116
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Colorado Rocky Mountain High
    Posts
    3,899
    Quote Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post
    A minor traffic infraction does NOT qualify as grounds to believe that someone is dangerous....( So, your argument/side is not valid) Criminal history he knows nothing of cannot be a valid reason because it is something he does not yet know... So, where is the "articulable" part that is a requirement being satisfied? It is NOT.... so, no valid reason for disarming.... Look at the ruling in terry vs OH again... it specifically states "armed AND dangerous" not "armed OR dangerous"... Hence, it CANNOT apply here "legally" IF the cop cannot give a VALID REASON why he considers the subject dangerous to his safety then he cannot legally disarm them... Now, you and I know for a fact that the cops can ASK you all day long to give them your firearm, but they have NO LEGAL RIGHT to FORCE YOU TO.........(does depend on State laws too, some places DO have specific laws concerning this) and yes,they will probably blow a gasket and get all belligerent when you LEGALLY refuse to do so..... I know because it happened to me... and no, I didnt need to "shoot" him.... I also did NOT disarm......

    STOP cowering when you see a cop and giving in to their every demand.... (directed at no particular person here) be a man and stand up for what is right (directed at everyone here) UNTIL we stand up to them they will continue to infringe more and more until there wont be ANY rights left to defend.....
    If that's how you want to handle it fine just be fully aware that you aree betting your life and your freedom everytime you do it.
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  8. #117
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    The Lowcountry of South Carolina
    Posts
    2,039
    Quote Originally Posted by Deserteagle View Post
    Just FYI, you are wasting your time trying to talk some sense into Axeanda45. He is one of those nut cases that believe the modern-day government is illegitimate and we don't have to answer to anything other than the constitution. Screw the courts and forget it's 2013, do what you want.
    DesertEagle,
    Thanks, but I'm old enough to know that I won't change his mind or that he will even pay attention to anything I post. There are others such as yourself that read this, and I wanted to make my point, while conceding that some of his arguments have credence. I think that this forum is great for exchanging ideas, and wish it wouldn't devolve into trying to argue black and white on a grey issue. (no doubt he will come back with it being obviously a wrong/right issue)
    Chief

  9. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare45 View Post
    If you really think a guy with a gun permit is dangerous then you need to get out of law enforcement.
    Having a concealed weapons permit does not make you a firearms expert. It also does not make you a great person. Nor does it make you immune from being violent or breaking laws. Any scumbag who hasn't been caught and convicted of a felony or domestic violence can get a permit. And any dumbass with half a brain who never graduated high school and needs somebody else to load his gun can get a permit too (at least in states that dont require hands on training).

    My point is that neither having a badge nor having a CCW permit will make you a less dangerous person when handling loaded firearms.

    To drive my point home a little more, go spend some time at a gun store and just look at all the idiots that are buying guns or already own guns. I saw a drunk guy trying to buy ammo just the other day. Drunk in the middle of the day...

  10. #119
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    OHIO
    Posts
    2,109
    Quote Originally Posted by Deserteagle View Post
    Just FYI, you are wasting your time trying to talk some sense into Axeanda45. He is one of those nut cases that believe the modern-day government is illegitimate and we don't have to answer to anything other than the constitution. Screw the courts and forget it's 2013, do what you want.
    This drivel is coming from someone who, every time he pulls his weapon out shoots someone whether they deserve it or not..... And when we dont do the same, we are "brandishing" which, you know, is sooooooooooo much worse than murder.....

  11. #120
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    OHIO
    Posts
    2,109
    Quote Originally Posted by Deserteagle View Post
    Having a concealed weapons permit does not make you a firearms expert. It also does not make you a great person. Nor does it make you immune from being violent or breaking laws. Any scumbag who hasn't been caught and convicted of a felony or domestic violence can get a permit. And any dumbass with half a brain who never graduated high school and needs somebody else to load his gun can get a permit too (at least in states that dont require hands on training).


    My point is that neither having a badge nor having a CCW permit will make you a less dangerous person when handling loaded firearms.

    To drive my point home a little more, go spend some time at a gun store and just look at all the idiots that are buying guns or already own guns. I saw a drunk guy trying to buy ammo just the other day. Drunk in the middle of the day...
    SO, those that dont do things like you would want them to arent good enough to have rights like you do... Glad you cleared that up for us.....

    Oh, about the guy who was "drunk" did you give him a sobriety test? is he a shift worker and could this possibly be his "night"? He was buying AMMO????? Oh, the humanity!!!!!!! Hide the women and children!!!!!!

    YOU are so biased it is funny....

Page 12 of 18 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Quantcast