Concealed vs Open carry - Page 3
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Thread: Concealed vs Open carry

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    "thru" in action:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA-xIssgT-o

    At least in his fantasies.
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  2.   
  3. Thru, have we met??? I'm new to this forum, and am really enjoying the company and discussion here. Just turned 60 years old today, I'm a Vietnam combat vet (Scout Dogs, 34th Infantry Platoon, 1st Cavalry Division-Airmoble 1972), a husband/father/grandfather, and a retired Critical Care-Truama nurse. I never have been a gun slinging superhero, and it's a virtual certainty that many if not most on this forum are likely to be better marksmen, faster at the draw, and just better all around athletes than me. Fortunately, the only performance I'm interested in beating is my last, nobody else's is even on my radar.

    Based on your posts, I believe there may still be time to rehabilitate your image unless you're permanently locked into a pre-adolescent mentality. You're in a 3 stage process, and almost at the end. Stage 1, we're all politely embarrassed for you based on your tin ear in social situations and media by your bragging, posing, and straw man arguments. Stage 2, because you continue without relent, we end up laughing behind your back. This is unkind, but you make it difficult to avoid. Stage 3, you refuse to change and simply become boring, and therefore ignored.

    If you've got a quirky sense of humor or just think along different lines then man up and say so. Respond to logic with logic, and a little humility goes a long way. Or you can continue, certain in the knowledge that your lightening fast draw from a concealed position will kill me while I'm trying to access the ankle holster I've never owned.

  4. #23
    look at it this way, if i oc the bg is not going to be surprised, he is just going to try and take me first in the commission of his crime, if i cc and he tries to rob,molest, kill someone he will be "surprised" by the flash of bright light he see's. then he wont try to rob,molest, kill anyone ever again. and the taxpayers wont have to pay for his room and board for the next 50 years. "gun control is being able to hit your target"

  5. Quote Originally Posted by redneck050 View Post
    look at it this way, if i oc the bg is not going to be surprised, he is just going to try and take me first in the commission of his crime, if i cc and he tries to rob,molest, kill someone he will be "surprised" by the flash of bright light he see's. then he wont try to rob,molest, kill anyone ever again. and the taxpayers wont have to pay for his room and board for the next 50 years. "gun control is being able to hit your target"
    Or, the criminal could just think, "Why would I want to attack that guy that has the capability to kill me with when I can wait 5 minutes for him to leave, or go down the street one block and choose one of the 99.5% of the remaining population that isn't visibly carrying a gun and appears to be a much easier target?" Criminals are lazy and cowards - not necessarily stupid. I have no desire to save any taxpayers' money by being judge, jury and executioner. My goal is to protect my family, and their best protection is to give the criminal as little reason as possible to choose me as a target. Concealed carry does nothing to dissuade the criminal away from me, it only allows me to defend myself after they have attacked.

    I've often wondered if some people who carry concealed have hero fantasies and a latent desire to rid the world of bad guys. I don't wonder so much about that anymore, after reading some of these comments I am sure it is true.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by thru View Post
    You should have been there when Hack had people shooting right past each other, for "experience" at such things. :-) Even Ayoob says that if you hit them with a bullet at all, it's best to kill them, altho he words it more tactfully. action does not ALWAYS beat reaction, either. SOME people's reaction is a LOT faster than other people's action. :-) their nervous system is trained and so are their hands/arms, so they are far more efficient at the job. I can let you draw first, from ccw, and beat you quite easily (me from ccw) as a matter of fact. all it takes is for you to be using a stupid ankle rig and me be starting with "hand in pocket", and I'll empty most of the mag into you before you can fire a shot, after I wait so see you kneel in order to pull up your pant-leg. 6 shot mag, total time to react, draw and get 4 hits on the chest, at 6 ft or so of distance? sub 1.5 seconds. Sometimes, I can do this in 1.2 seconds



    Sent from behind enemy lines.

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by redneck050 View Post
    look at it this way, if i oc the bg is not going to be surprised, he is just going to try and take me first in the commission of his crime, if i cc and he tries to rob,molest, kill someone he will be "surprised" by the flash of bright light he see's. then he wont try to rob,molest, kill anyone ever again. and the taxpayers wont have to pay for his room and board for the next 50 years. "gun control is being able to hit your target"
    Look at it this way.... if your contention that the bad guy would try and take you out first if you open carried is valid then you must have a multitude of real life incidents where this has happened to base that on.... correct? So how about sharing all those incidents that have happened over the past several DECADES! of open carry in just Arizona? Or I'll make it even easier... how about sharing all those factual incidents using the entire United States to draw from? Oh.... and kindly provide cites and/or links so we can research them.

    I'm not going to hold my breath because the incidents where an ordinary open carrier was taken out first are so rare you will have a hard time finding them. And if you do find some please be intellectually honest and compare the rarity of those events with the DECADES of uneventful open carry.

    Oh...and please scroll up to post #5 for some food for thought about that magical mythical super ninja "concealed carry element of surprise".

    Originally posted by NavyLCDR
    I've often wondered if some people who carry concealed have hero fantasies and a latent desire to rid the world of bad guys. I don't wonder so much about that anymore, after reading some of these comments I am sure it is true.
    After reading many posts from many concealed carriers on several different forums for quite a few years I have no doubt what so ever that there are a multitude of concealed carriers just itching to whip out their "element of surprise" and be the hero by putting some "punk" away.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by redneck050 View Post
    look at it this way, if i oc the bg is not going to be surprised, he is just going to try and take me first in the commission of his crime
    Why do we hear about so few gun store robberies? Maybe because nearly everyone behind the counter is open carrying and the BG's know there are much softer targets down the road a piece?

    Why do BG's rob the tellers at banks instead of the much more lucrative potential of robbing the armored truck courier as he's transporting cash money to and from the truck and the bank? Maybe because they know that both the courier and the driver are heavily, and openly, armed?

    Why, if I have a choice, would I want the BG to "be surprised" to find out that I'm armed and ready to defend myself with deadly force if necessary? Wouldn't it be better if he were surprised to find that his intended victim was armed, and that surprise caused him to find an easier target?

    Your theory defies logic. Oh, but wait, you have other reasons for wanting to "surprise" someone:

    Quote Originally Posted by redneck050 View Post
    ...if i cc and he tries to rob,molest, kill someone he will be "surprised" by the flash of bright light he see's. then he wont try to rob,molest, kill anyone ever again. and the taxpayers wont have to pay for his room and board for the next 50 years.
    And because of posturing puffery such as this, all CC'ers who CC without any wish to be judge, jury and executioner, have to defend against assumptions like Navy's and Bikenut's posts above make about "multitudes" of CC'ers. Thanks for nothin', because truly, as one who CC's, I would rather have it taken for granted that I am a political ally of all people who carry, whether open or concealed, than to waste time having to be scrutinized by some of them so they can make sure I'm not like you in your wish for the opportunity to rid the country of the dregs of our society through gunfire. Not that I worry about that with Navy or Bikenut specifically. We've been interacting for quite awhile now, but other OC'ers with whom I don't regularly interact may well associate my history as a CC'er to be indicative of latent violent tendencies because of puffery like that which your post contains, and which both alluded to as contributing to their sense of caution concerning CC'ers who might think like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by redneck050 View Post
    "gun control is being able to hit your target"
    Perhaps a better slogan for you would be, "Gun control is being able to surprise your target." Just a thought.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  9. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Why do we hear about so few gun store robberies? Maybe because nearly everyone behind the counter is open carrying and the BG's know there are much softer targets down the road a piece?


    Blues
    Actually, I just heard of an attempted gun store robbery a couple months ago. Guy came in armed with a baseball bat, smashed a case and tried to grab a gun and run. Clearly, this did not work out well for him. I don't think he died, but he's probably not going to be trying that again.

    And... I CC because that's how I want to carry. Plus, there's a few cities out here where OC is banned (CC fine with permit). I wouldn't want to forget which ones.
    Modern Whig
    "Government is not meant to burden Liberty but rather to secure it." -T.J. O'Hara

  10. #29
    ezkl2230 Guest
    I choose to CC for one reason: I don't want to attract any more attention to myself than is necessary. I have heard both sides of the argument for years. I recently had a spirited discussion with a customer, an NRA instructor, who was adamant that OC is the only way to go because it serves notice on bad guys and may deter them from trying anything.

    I choose to CC because of tactical considerations. If I am a bad guy, before hitting a target the first thing I'm going to do is recon it. I'm going to look for potential defenders. Guess who I am going to take out first? That is exactly what happened in the Kirkwood city council shooting. Armed officers stood guard at the door of the meeting; they were the first to be killed. The shooter then went on to shoot and kill the mayor, two council members, and a reporter, and to injure two others before being killed by other officers responding to the shooting.

    While it might be true that the presence of an armed individual may indeed deter a bad guy in some instances, in others openly carrying a firearm marks you for death. The bad guy always has the initiative until someone can find a way to take it back. If I am CC'ing, the chances are good that I will still be alive to take that shot.

  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezkl2230 View Post
    I choose to CC for one reason: I don't want to attract any more attention to myself than is necessary. I have heard both sides of the argument for years. I recently had a spirited discussion with a customer, an NRA instructor, who was adamant that OC is the only way to go because it serves notice on bad guys and may deter them from trying anything.

    I choose to CC because of tactical considerations. If I am a bad guy, before hitting a target the first thing I'm going to do is recon it. I'm going to look for potential defenders. Guess who I am going to take out first? That is exactly what happened in the Kirkwood city council shooting. Armed officers stood guard at the door of the meeting; they were the first to be killed. The shooter then went on to shoot and kill the mayor, two council members, and a reporter, and to injure two others before being killed by other officers responding to the shooting.

    While it might be true that the presence of an armed individual may indeed deter a bad guy in some instances, in others openly carrying a firearm marks you for death. The bad guy always has the initiative until someone can find a way to take it back. If I am CC'ing, the chances are good that I will still be alive to take that shot.
    Just curious... in as much as you have found one instance where the bad guy took out armed guards who were expected to be there (which isn't exactly the same as taking out a random citizen open carrier who unexpectedly happens to be in a store) have you also researched how many concealed carriers were targeted by bad guys because they appeared unarmed?

    The thing is... if we are intellectually honest... we will take both sides of the equation and honestly compare them against each other before making any decisions.

    So... how does open carry's supposed being "shot first" compare to concealed carry's "attacked because they appear unarmed" statistics?

    Please provide cites and/or links to actual factual incidents/studies/statistics to support your contention.

    I'm actually not being a jerk... I just would like actual facts instead of the same old oft repeated myths.

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