Concealed vs Open carry - Page 5
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Thread: Concealed vs Open carry

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by telpinaro View Post
    I had noticed. And I agree with your reasoning as well (all of it, not just that)... but the story was just too funny not to share!

    I did hear one interesting reason for CC... Say someone wants to rob a store, and someone who OC's is there and determines that there is no threat to life (for whatever reason) and decides not to get involved. Possibly there with his kids and has the priority to get out without being noticed. Another customer sees his gun and asks loudly (as he's frightened), "Why don't you DO something?!" The OC'er has now been volunteered to intervene whether he wants to or not, and possibly made the whole situation worse.

    Granted, the scenario is rather unlikely, but it is possible. An instructor who has a young son gave that explanation as one of several for why he prefers CC to OC, and that's the one that stuck with me since I'd never heard it before.
    My opinion on that scenario:

    No one can volunteer me to defend them. No one has that power over me. That situation holds no value.

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  3. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    My opinion on that scenario:

    No one can volunteer me to defend them. No one has that power over me. That situation holds no value.

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    If the BG heard him, he might be the one to give you no choice and turn it in to a situation where you're required to defend yourself.

    Like I said, unlikely scenario, but food for thought nonetheless. I didn't come up with it, I just thought it was interesting.
    Modern Whig
    "Government is not meant to burden Liberty but rather to secure it." -T.J. O'Hara

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by telpinaro View Post
    If the BG heard him, he might be the one to give you no choice and turn it in to a situation where you're required to defend yourself.

    Like I said, unlikely scenario, but food for thought nonetheless. I didn't come up with it, I just thought it was interesting.
    Good point, didn't think of that. After spending a little bit of time thinking about it, this is my conclusion.

    If there is an escape, he can be yelling all he wants as I'm running out the back. Stupidity will be their demise.

    If there is no escape, my firearm will be out, and in that unlikely scenario, I will have the drop as the bad guy wouldn't have seen me but I will be all ready aiming at him.

    With about an infinite of other possibilities in between. :-)

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  5. I notice whenever the discussion about "you'll be shot first" comes up the only defense to their theories that the concealed carry only crowd can come up with for proof are the situations where a facility is attacked that has armed guards. Here are the reasons why that has almost nothing in common with Joe Citizen open carrying in normal life.

    If you are going to attack a city council meeting, a government facility, or a bank, there are known points of resistance that are going to be fixed in place that you must plan to take out. The police that will be present at any city council meeting and the guards at the government facility or bank. Those are known. They are not going away. They will be there. They must be planned and accounted for.

    Now, even in that situation - what is the attacker going to do? Their goal is to shoot the mayor, shoot as many civilians as they can in the government facility, or steal what they can from the bank. In order for the criminal to shoot the Joe Citizen open carrying a gun first, they would have to burst in, shoot the known defenders that they had to plan to take out, and then STOP TO EVALUATE all the remaining civilians who look pretty much like each other in order to determine if the one thing different about them is if they have a gun in a holster on their belt or not! Is that going to happen in real life? It never has yet and it makes no sense for it to ever happen. So what are the chances the Joe Civilian open carrying a handgun in a holster in a situation like that will be picked out of everyone else that looks almost just like them to get shot first? Very Slim to none, and Mr. Very Slim would have to be severely mentally challenged to stop their attack to evaluate every civilian there for a gun on their belt.

    Now, as far as the convenience store smash and grab, or the mugging on the street. If the criminal is smart enough to case the place before they attempt the robbery, or evaluate their lone target on the street, and they see a guy with a gun there, why would they pick that particular convenience store at the particular moment to rob with the greatest potential of getting killed in the process or that one particular guy on the street? Wouldn't it be so much beneficial for the criminal to wait 5 minutes for the guy with the gun to leave, or just go down the street one block, and pick one of the remaining 99.5% of the public to attack, or the store without a visible gun and the means to kill them with? And if they don't case the place first, again the attack is going to be a burst in, rob first, ask questions later. Again they would have to be severely mentally challenged to burst in, and stop the attack to inspect every Joe Civilian to see if the only difference is a handgun on their belt. To hide my gun from the burst in a rob type criminal, all I have to do is tuck my elbow at my side over my gun and turn my strong side slightly away from them.

    There are many valid reasons why a person would choose to conceal carry over open carry, and concealed carry is perfectly fine - I do it on occasion myself. But I don't understand why some people have to cling to this "element of surprise" and "shoot me first" crap. At least present reasons that make sense.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by chilipeppernorm View Post
    Ok, I did a search but didn't find this exact topic. If it already exists my apology to all. I have a non-resident CCW for Nevada, Utah, and Florida, and hopefully will acquire a resident permit for CA (not holding my breath). I do have a question, but before I pose it I want to make sure all know that I'm not questioning the right or preference of anyone who chooses open carry. I can see any number of circumstances where open carry convenience may prevail. However, from my perspective I believe that open carry in many public situations, areas, or venues one could be forfeiting a valuable tactical advantage. Simply put, I don't want the general public to know I'm armed, just want to appear as "joe lunchbox" and be mostly ignored unless I have to present my weapon in defense of myself or others, which should be a complete surprise to all and give me that slight edge.

    I'm looking for rationales I may have overlooked, but please know that there is no need for anyone to "defend" their choice as I'm not challenging nor criticizing that choice. Thanks in advance.
    When I started this thread I was seeking for opinions on OC by those who practice it, and I thought I was clear that while I practice CC where possible and why, I was in no way criticizing those who practice OC (see above). I'm kind of surprised by the angry accusations of the OC practitioners. I didn't realize I was having save the world hero fantasizes. While I did state I prefer CC for the anonymity and believe it to be a tactical advantage, clearly there is no way I can prove tactical advantage from published data. Likewise, there is no way the OC side can prove a tactical advantage and most especially a preventative value to OC based on published data unless criminals are self reporting on some web site or data base, for instance I went by the Quik Stop today to rob it but some OC guy was buying a pack of smokes so I moved on.

    How about the CC people do so because that is their comfort zone (or OC is illegal) and the OC people do so because that is their comfort zone. Both groups are exercising their 2nd Amendment rights. Perhaps we should be should be directing all the anger and energy at those who would deny us collectively our rights to do so whether open or concealed.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by chilipeppernorm View Post
    I'm kind of surprised by the angry accusations of the OC practitioners. I didn't realize I was having save the world hero fantasizes.
    I don't see where anyone alluded to you having hero fantasies. What we said was that SOME people who carry concealed seem to. That doesn't mean you.

    Quote Originally Posted by thru View Post
    but the ccw guy can prevent that punk from going on to attack others in other places, perhaps permanently, and also send a message to other punks like him. You left out that part.
    Quote Originally Posted by redneck050 View Post
    look at it this way, if i oc the bg is not going to be surprised, he is just going to try and take me first in the commission of his crime, if i cc and he tries to rob,molest, kill someone he will be "surprised" by the flash of bright light he see's. then he wont try to rob,molest, kill anyone ever again. and the taxpayers wont have to pay for his room and board for the next 50 years. "gun control is being able to hit your target"
    We are talking about the people who post that one advantage of concealed carry is that it is a superior method of removing criminals from those among the living. The open carry crowd says that one advantage of open carry is the criminal will just leave us alone so we don't have to deal with them attacking us. Yes, we are selfish. I've even been accused by some as being responsible for the helpless little old lady getting attacked by the bad guy if the bad guy chose to pass me up because they saw my gun.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by chilipeppernorm View Post
    When I started this thread I was seeking for opinions on OC by those who practice it, and I thought I was clear that while I practice CC where possible and why, I was in no way criticizing those who practice OC (see above). I'm kind of surprised by the angry accusations of the OC practitioners. I didn't realize I was having save the world hero fantasizes. While I did state I prefer CC for the anonymity and believe it to be a tactical advantage, clearly there is no way I can prove tactical advantage from published data. Likewise, there is no way the OC side can prove a tactical advantage and most especially a preventative value to OC based on published data unless criminals are self reporting on some web site or data base, for instance I went by the Quik Stop today to rob it but some OC guy was buying a pack of smokes so I moved on.

    How about the CC people do so because that is their comfort zone (or OC is illegal) and the OC people do so because that is their comfort zone. Both groups are exercising their 2nd Amendment rights. Perhaps we should be should be directing all the anger and energy at those who would deny us collectively our rights to do so whether open or concealed.
    None of our "accusations" held anger. The problem here is, when an open carrier condemns lies that keep perpetuating a myth about guns, we get blamed.

    The first few pages were a collection of seemingly good responses. I know my first was very positive, my second was just my experience in this forum and I knew which threads would answer your question. I linked to three threads and another forum for more open carry opinions.

    No anger intended here either, but unless you live in a constitutional carry state, concealed carrying with a permit is not exercising your rights, rather it's just carrying a firearm with the government's permission. When one must ask the government to do something, it's no longer a Right.

    And there has been a published report of felons being interviewed about how they chose their victims. I know Navy has the report somewhere, or i could find it sometime tomorrow.

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  9. #48
    ezkl2230 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    You would really risk trying to take out an armed civilian if you were going to commit a crime? Why wouldn't you just wait till they left so you had less risk in your way?

    I mean, when I plan on doing anything, if I see an obstacle that I know will be gone in a brief amount of time I'll wait. I would want to say that's common sense, but this viewpoint of taking on armed people first when you wouldn't have to comes up far too regularly...

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    If there are cases in which shooters have gone after armed LEO's, then I have to believe they will go after an armed civilian as well on the assumption that the civilian will not be as well trained as the LEO.

    Regardless, and I know there are those who will continue to argue this point, I personally believe that, if I am prepared for the person who will go after an armed LEO, I am prepared to handle the person who goes after the "defenseless" as well. This is one point on which I will not change my mind.

  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezkl2230 View Post
    If there are cases in which shooters have gone after armed LEO's, then I have to believe they will go after an armed civilian as well on the assumption that the civilian will not be as well trained as the LEO.
    You are missing the point. One thing an "armed LEO" (are there unarmed ones?) has is high visibility. If a bad guy chooses to enter a situation where there is a cop already present, you can assume that the simple fact they are wearing a uniform means the bad guy knows they are armed, without seeing it. If a bad guy chooses to do his business when a cop is already there, it is a good assumption that teh cop will be his target, even though all he might see is a hat in a crowded room. Joe nobody that is armed usually doesn't have a sign, a uniform, a bright orange holster, or anything else that identifies them.
    Chief

  11. NavyLCDR and Firefighterchen, thanks for your response. You're right, all the early responses were polite and helpful. I guess as a new guy here I picked up on the vibe in what seems to be a long standing debate between OC and CC. I would disagree that CC is not exercising my rights. You can't drive your car without a government issued license, you can't build a home or remodel it without building inspection permits. You can't (legally) catch a fish in public waters without permission from the government Make no mistake, I believe anyone qualified to own a weapon should be able to carry it in any safe and responsible manner they see fit. Ironically, OC is permitted in CA, your weapon simply cannot have any ammo in it. This of course defeats the purpose which no doubt was the intent.

    Nevada is an OC state, but when training there we were told the LVPD prefer you don't OC on the Vegas Strip as there are so many tourists from all over that they get constant calls of a man with a weapon in public. Maybe our Nevada members can comment on this.

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