Concealed vs Open carry - Page 6
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Thread: Concealed vs Open carry

  1. #51
    lol. who says that they must "burst in, anyway? I've seen MANY city council meetings with no cops present, too. Why can't they just wait until cold weather, and wear heavy enough clothing to ccw an uZi, go into restroom, assemble it THERE, bring it out slung underam, hmm? your little plotline is simplistic. Guy in theater in CO, I think it was? slipped out a door, IIRC, propped it open and came back with LOTS of gear.

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by chilipeppernorm View Post
    NavyLCDR and Firefighterchen, thanks for your response. You're right, all the early responses were polite and helpful. I guess as a new guy here I picked up on the vibe in what seems to be a long standing debate between OC and CC. I would disagree that CC is not exercising my rights. You can't drive your car without a government issued license, you can't build a home or remodel it without building inspection permits. You can't (legally) catch a fish in public waters without permission from the government Make no mistake, I believe anyone qualified to own a weapon should be able to carry it in any safe and responsible manner they see fit. Ironically, OC is permitted in CA, your weapon simply cannot have any ammo in it. This of course defeats the purpose which no doubt was the intent.

    Nevada is an OC state, but when training there we were told the LVPD prefer you don't OC on the Vegas Strip as there are so many tourists from all over that they get constant calls of a man with a weapon in public. Maybe our Nevada members can comment on this.
    The simple fact is...

    If it is a right then you don't have to ask permission to do it. And a "license" or "permit" issued by the State IS "permission".

    The thing is... it isn't so much about being given "permission" as it is about the government being in control of who is given that permission because.. he who has the power to give permission also has the power to deny permission.

    So... do you have the right to bear an arm in a concealed manner or are you being "allowed" to do it because the government said you could? Remember... if you run afoul of any of the government's "no no" criteria the government will suddenly deny you the permission.

    If it is a "right" then you don't need permission... if you need permission then it isn't a right but is a "privilege" subject to the whims of whoever has the power to grant, or deny, .. "permission".

    So... do you have the right to carry concealed or do you have a paper note from your nanny government that says as long as you kiss the ass of government you will be "allowed" to carry concealed?

  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by chilipeppernorm View Post
    NavyLCDR and Firefighterchen, thanks for your response. You're right, all the early responses were polite and helpful. I guess as a new guy here I picked up on the vibe in what seems to be a long standing debate between OC and CC. I would disagree that CC is not exercising my rights. You can't drive your car without a government issued license, you can't build a home or remodel it without building inspection permits. You can't (legally) catch a fish in public waters without permission from the government Make no mistake, I believe anyone qualified to own a weapon should be able to carry it in any safe and responsible manner they see fit. Ironically, OC is permitted in CA, your weapon simply cannot have any ammo in it. This of course defeats the purpose which no doubt was the intent.

    Nevada is an OC state, but when training there we were told the LVPD prefer you don't OC on the Vegas Strip as there are so many tourists from all over that they get constant calls of a man with a weapon in public. Maybe our Nevada members can comment on this.
    Bikenut puts it very well. We have not been a free country for a very long time, for reasons you just gave. We can't do nearly anything without the government's permission. Rights are meaningless in this country, might as well call us China.

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    The simple fact is...

    If it is a right then you don't have to ask permission to do it. And a "license" or "permit" issued by the State IS "permission".

    The thing is... it isn't so much about being given "permission" as it is about the government being in control of who is given that permission because.. he who has the power to give permission also has the power to deny permission.

    So... do you have the right to bear an arm in a concealed manner or are you being "allowed" to do it because the government said you could? Remember... if you run afoul of any of the government's "no no" criteria the government will suddenly deny you the permission.

    If it is a "right" then you don't need permission... if you need permission then it isn't a right but is a "privilege" subject to the whims of whoever has the power to grant, or deny, .. "permission".

    So... do you have the right to carry concealed or do you have a paper note from your nanny government that says as long as you kiss the ass of government you will be "allowed" to carry concealed?
    Bikenut, must be a long day on my end, as it seems to me by your wording you're still personalizing the OC vs CC. You and your is personal, while we and our is collective. Since you worded in the personal I'll respond in the personal. First, it's not "my" nanny government, it's "our" nanny government. You may be blessed to live in a state where open loaded carry is permissible, and God Bless if you do. Still, even if you enjoy such privilege you cannot OC in the airport to pick up a loved one, nor in a courthouse, nor in any police station I've ever walked into, nor many school grounds, and any other areas so posted. If you the OC practitioner obey these restrictive laws does that make you an ass kisser of your nanny government??

    Utah is a very 2A friendly state and the state government fully supports the law abiding citizens right to own, use, and employ weapons for self defense under the Stand Your Ground and Home as Castle laws, yet it is unlawful for anyone to carry a weapon (OC or CC) into a house of worship without the express consent of the congregation and/or church leadership. Nanny government or wishes of the citizens of Utah?? OC and CC have a fine and clear distinction in some states that permit both. Nevada provides for both, however, if you have a CC permit on your person and you are in OC then you are violating the law and your permit. Likewise, if you typically OC but decide to CC and don't possess the permit then you are in violation of the law. It's either/or, not both.

    If your point is there is far to much government and regulation in our lives, then you have my unconditional agreement and applause. On the other hand, if you're implying that OC carries even a whiff of patriotic moral superiority over CC, then I call BS.

  6. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by chilipeppernorm View Post
    Bikenut, must be a long day on my end, as it seems to me by your wording you're still personalizing the OC vs CC. You and your is personal, while we and our is collective. Since you worded in the personal I'll respond in the personal. First, it's not "my" nanny government, it's "our" nanny government. You may be blessed to live in a state where open loaded carry is permissible, and God Bless if you do. Still, even if you enjoy such privilege you cannot OC in the airport to pick up a loved one, nor in a courthouse, nor in any police station I've ever walked into, nor many school grounds, and any other areas so posted. If you the OC practitioner obey these restrictive laws does that make you an ass kisser of your nanny government??

    Utah is a very 2A friendly state and the state government fully supports the law abiding citizens right to own, use, and employ weapons for self defense under the Stand Your Ground and Home as Castle laws, yet it is unlawful for anyone to carry a weapon (OC or CC) into a house of worship without the express consent of the congregation and/or church leadership. Nanny government or wishes of the citizens of Utah?? OC and CC have a fine and clear distinction in some states that permit both. Nevada provides for both, however, if you have a CC permit on your person and you are in OC then you are violating the law and your permit. Likewise, if you typically OC but decide to CC and don't possess the permit then you are in violation of the law. It's either/or, not both.

    If your point is there is far to much government and regulation in our lives, then you have my unconditional agreement and applause. On the other hand, if you're implying that OC carries even a whiff of patriotic moral superiority over CC, then I call BS.
    I'll let bikenut explain himself further, but I don't believe he was talking anything about oc vs cc. He was taking about Rights vs privileges. The mindset that citizens are given permission to do a privilege, not that they were free to do it to begin with, has empowered this ridiculous government we have. This mindset has to change.

    And depending on states, all the places you mentioned at the beginning could be legal to carry.

    For instance, in Washington:

    I can carry into the airport, just not passed security. (This one doesn't really fit the context though because it's private property)

    I can carry in the courthouse, just not in the areas of court proceedings.

    I can carry on school grounds (again though that's now a privilege since it requires a permission slip)

    I can carry into a police station.

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  7. Quote Originally Posted by chilipeppernorm View Post
    Nevada provides for both, however, if you have a CC permit on your person and you are in OC then you are violating the law and your permit.
    That ^^^ part of your tirade is absolute nonsense. That is like saying that it is illegal to ride a bicycle if you have a driver's license on your person. And in regards to the rest of your tirade: Bikenut is not referring to the difference between OC and CC. He is referring to the difference between a right and a privilege. If you want to exercise your "right" to carry a firearm, then you would be doing so without meeting the requirement to pay the government in order to obtain their permission to do so. In such case, a person may very well be jailed for exercising their right - as have many people who have exercised various rights throughout history. But the minute that you pay the government for the government's permission to do something, it is no longer a right - it is a privilege that you have paid for permission to engage in without getting arrested.

    This isn't about open carry or concealed carry. It is about not drinking the government supplied kool aid and being brainwashed into thinking that after you pay the government for their permission to do something you are exercising a right. There are times when I don't exercise my right to carry a firearm and yet still carry it. Those times are when I am doing so under the conditions that would otherwise be illegal to without the permission card that I paid to the government to obtain.

    Also in regards to your other points: in my state I can, and have, openly carried my firearm in SEATAC International Airport when dropping off and picking up loved ones - right up to just outside the entrance to the secured area. I can and have openly carried my firearm in a courthouse building when doing routine business such as obtaining vehicle registration - just not past the security checkpoint where the court proceedings are held. I can and have openly carried my firearm inside a police station when obtaining an accident report for insurance purposes. I can and have openly carried my firearm on school grounds outside my vehicle while picking up and dropping off my daughter. Carrying on school grounds is in no way exercising my right to carry a firearm because I have paid the government for their permission to do so. I am exercising the privilege extended to me as part of an elite group that I have paid my dues and fulfilled the membership requirements to be in.

    Just because a person is carrying a firearm is in no way an indication by itself that they are exercising any right to do so and it doesn't matter if they are carrying it under two layers of socks and a boot in an ankle holster or duct taped to their forehead. What matters is if they paid the government for the government's permission to do so. We have the 2nd Amendment right to carry a firearm in this country - and anyone may exercise that right - and sometimes the exercise of that right may result in going to jail for it; but the minute you pay the government to keep yourself out of jail for doing something, it becomes a privilege of not going to jail extended to you by the government which you paid to obtain.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  8. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by chilipeppernorm View Post
    Bikenut, must be a long day on my end, as it seems to me by your wording you're still personalizing the OC vs CC. You and your is personal, while we and our is collective. Since you worded in the personal I'll respond in the personal. First, it's not "my" nanny government, it's "our" nanny government. You may be blessed to live in a state where open loaded carry is permissible, and God Bless if you do. Still, even if you enjoy such privilege you cannot OC in the airport to pick up a loved one, nor in a courthouse, nor in any police station I've ever walked into, nor many school grounds, and any other areas so posted. If you the OC practitioner obey these restrictive laws does that make you an ass kisser of your nanny government??

    Utah is a very 2A friendly state and the state government fully supports the law abiding citizens right to own, use, and employ weapons for self defense under the Stand Your Ground and Home as Castle laws, yet it is unlawful for anyone to carry a weapon (OC or CC) into a house of worship without the express consent of the congregation and/or church leadership. Nanny government or wishes of the citizens of Utah?? OC and CC have a fine and clear distinction in some states that permit both. Nevada provides for both, however, if you have a CC permit on your person and you are in OC then you are violating the law and your permit. Likewise, if you typically OC but decide to CC and don't possess the permit then you are in violation of the law. It's either/or, not both.

    If your point is there is far to much government and regulation in our lives, then you have my unconditional agreement and applause. On the other hand, if you're implying that OC carries even a whiff of patriotic moral superiority over CC, then I call BS.
    Firefigherchen in post #55 and NavyLCDR in post #56 did an exceptional job of explaining my post (#52) concerning the difference between a "right" and a "privilege" in reference to concealed carry permits that had no connection to OC whatsoever. My thanks guys... I couldn't have done any better.

  9. #58
    I have non-resident permits from Arizona and Utah (live in very stupid California) and carry concealed whenever I can. There are some states that I cannot CC in (Oregon for one). In tose cases I will carry open. I have a Blackhawk Serpa which is very secure yet very easy to draw if necessary. I won't open carry for the same reasons you expressed, along with the fact that I don't want to be the first casualty of some nut job. Open carry also alarms some people, although I've found that most don't appear to be alarmed or object. I've had a few store employees ask me to not bring my gun in. If I can't convince them that I am not a threat I leave with my gun, and I don't go back. The point that the shooter in Colorado picked the one theater in Aurora that was posted gun free usually gets store employees to thinking. Be a senior citizen probably helps my cause as well.

  10. #59
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    When someone asks a question like open vs concealed, you have to expect to get two different, and two very strong arguments for both methods. It's commonly referred to as "opening a can of worms". It's all a matter of personal choice.

    The better question would be: What do you choose? That way, we will get a little less passion in our arguments.

  11. Absolutely concealed.

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