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  1. Why would I refer to NYS Penal Law Article 35 - Defense of Justification when we are talking about AZ law at the time?

    At that time, under AZ law, You are obligated to flee or retreat before using deadly force. Of course, if you can't flee or retreat, you may use deadly force if you are under imminent danger of death or severe physical injury.

    An important note, at the time, you were NOT considered innocent until proven guilty when claiming self defense. The burden of proof was on you to prove that you were under imminent danger of death or severe physical injury and that you did not have any opportunity to flee or avenue of retreat.

    There was a case where a man here in AZ was convicted of Murder because he could not prove his case of self defense. He was sentenced to life. The case went all the way to the Supreme Court and the judgment was recently (within the past two years) reversed. The Supreme Court ruled (appropriately) that a law that puts the burden of proof on the defendant is unconstitutional.

    Any way, this particular case has nothing to do with bad law or an injustice. This guy's "friend" was in the wrong when he got his weapon and threatened the "kid" after the "kid" walked away. He is lucky that all he got was a manslaughter charge and was sentenced to only 5 years. He must have had a really good lawyer and a sympathetic jury. This could have easily been a murder 2 charge and 20 to life sentence.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhoffman View Post
    Why would I refer to NYS Penal Law Article 35 - Defense of Justification when we are talking about AZ law at the time?

    At that time, under AZ law, You are obligated to flee or retreat before using deadly force. Of course, if you can't flee or retreat, you may use deadly force if you are under imminent danger of death or severe physical injury.

    An important note, at the time, you were NOT considered innocent until proven guilty when claiming self defense. The burden of proof was on you to prove that you were under imminent danger of death or severe physical injury and that you did not have any opportunity to flee or avenue of retreat.

    There was a case where a man here in AZ was convicted of Murder because he could not prove his case of self defense. He was sentenced to life. The case went all the way to the Supreme Court and the judgment was recently (within the past two years) reversed. The Supreme Court ruled (appropriately) that a law that puts the burden of proof on the defendant is unconstitutional.

    Any way, this particular case has nothing to do with bad law or an injustice. This guy's "friend" was in the wrong when he got his weapon and threatened the "kid" after the "kid" walked away. He is lucky that all he got was a manslaughter charge and was sentenced to only 5 years. He must have had a really good lawyer and a sympathetic jury. This could have easily been a murder 2 charge and 20 to life sentence.
    I gave you NYS because it's among the more restrictive states. States without SYG laws don't require you run away when attacked. They require you attempt retreat when threatened. Further, in all states at all times one enjoys the privilege of being innocent until proven guilty. That's not a state issue it's a constitutional protection. The Fifth Amendment forbids trial for a major crime except after indictment by a grand jury; prohibits double jeopardy (repeated trials), except in certain very limited circumstances; forbids punishment without due process of law. You are entitled to due process under the constitution and no state may regard you guilty until proven so and judged by a jury of your peers. What you're considering proving innocence is really justifying the use of force or deadly force. Whether or not SYG laws are in place, one must justify the use of force.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    I thought a while before I made this post. You told everyone (incorrectly) I was banned and it seemed best to let sleeping dogs lie rather than correct you.
    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Right out of the gate you tell a lie. You told everyone that you got banned, troll. You tricked people by using a part of the Profile settings
    I do screenshots to save a post to read later, or to reply to later or whatever, and while looking through a folder of them that was taking up a lot of space and which I planned on tossing as many as I could, I came across one by Treo while he had "Banned" next to his gender-confused avatar. Proof positive that just like I said above, right out of the gate Treo told a lie (that I told everyone "incorrectly" he'd been banned) as part of a two or three month plan to make me look deceitful when he knew good and well that I only looked at the following word next to he avatar and believed the lie he purposely put there:



    This is far from the first time that Treo has lied about either something I said, or something he said. No one here has ever caught me in a lie, and never will, because it's not something I need or want or would do just to "win" some petty, meaningless internet argument.

    A serial liar just came on here after a three-month hiatus to lie to everyone while lecturing me about the lack of "fruit" of my faith in my postings.

    I've told him before, but I honestly believe he needs professional help. I put him on Ignore sometime in 2012 and more than a year later he brought up the same argument between us that led to that decision, whining about what I had said to him back then. Now he comes back after three months for no other reason than to lie and try to embarrass or judge me, or whatever his truly obsessive purpose was, while coming to the defense of a self-avowed eugenicist and supporter of thought control through increasing abortion numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    I donít care what you think of me but I really want you to stop and consider what youíre going to feel when youíre standing before the judgment seat and God asks some lost soul why they rejected Christ and they turn and point right at you and say because if thatís what being a Christian is all about I want no part of it.
    I can think of at least two regulars here who have proclaimed their disdain for religion because of the rampant hypocrisy within all of them. This is at least the second time I have busted you telling lies while questioning my faith and putting yourself above me in that regard, Treo. It may well be you that lost soul points at, Treo, and it may well be the lies you have told about a total stranger that drove them away from the Lord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Iím leaving now
    That's probably a good idea. You've proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that you are not credible, honest, or trustworthy. I still pray you get the help you need though.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  5. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    I do screenshots to save a post to read later, or to reply to later or whatever, and while looking through a folder of them that was taking up a lot of space and which I planned on tossing as many as I could, I came across one by Treo while he had "Banned" next to his gender-confused avatar. Proof positive that just like I said above, right out of the gate Treo told a lie (that I told everyone "incorrectly" he'd been banned) as part of a two or three month plan to make me look deceitful when he knew good and well that I only looked at the following word next to he avatar and believed the lie he purposely put there:



    This is far from the first time that Treo has lied about either something I said, or something he said. No one here has ever caught me in a lie, and never will, because it's not something I need or want or would do just to "win" some petty, meaningless internet argument.

    A serial liar just came on here after a three-month hiatus to lie to everyone while lecturing me about the lack of "fruit" of my faith in my postings.

    I've told him before, but I honestly believe he needs professional help. I put him on Ignore sometime in 2012 and more than a year later he brought up the same argument between us that led to that decision, whining about what I had said to him back then. Now he comes back after three months for no other reason than to lie and try to embarrass or judge me, or whatever his truly obsessive purpose was, while coming to the defense of a self-avowed eugenicist and supporter of thought control through increasing abortion numbers.



    I can think of at least two regulars here who have proclaimed their disdain for religion because of the rampant hypocrisy within all of them. This is at least the second time I have busted you telling lies while questioning my faith and putting yourself above me in that regard, Treo. It may well be you that lost soul points at, Treo, and it may well be the lies you have told about a total stranger that drove them away from the Lord.



    That's probably a good idea. You've proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that you are not credible, honest, or trustworthy. I still pray you get the help you need though.

    Blues
    I can't believe you two get so worked up over internet ramblings and really, to what sort of credibility are you guys vying for here? You're just two individuals with made up names arguing over....nothing of any real importance. You guys fulfill every internet forum user stereotype out there. Unreal.

    Sent from my hand-held mind distractor

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by dad45acp View Post
    I can't believe you two get so worked up over internet ramblings and really, to what sort of credibility are you guys vying for here? You're just two individuals with made up names arguing over....nothing of any real importance. You guys fulfill every internet forum user stereotype out there. Unreal.

    Sent from my hand-held mind distractor
    Hmm.....Has it occurred to you that your one and only post in this thread was apparently inspired by getting worked up enough to take note of others getting worked up enough to comment about each other?

    Hypocrite, heal thyself!

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  7. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Hmm.....Has it occurred to you that your one and only post in this thread was apparently inspired by getting worked up enough to take note of others getting worked up enough to comment about each other?

    Hypocrite, heal thyself!

    Blues
    My internet warrior: I did not get worked up. But it's fun to watch you spin your top.

    Sent from my hand-held mind distractor

  8. #47
    Man o man....this is for sure NOT a Zen forum....

  9. Quote Originally Posted by wolf_fire View Post
    Our anger and emotion should never play a factor into whether we pull a firearm or not.I have gotten into arguments, disagreements, and down right awful tempers while carrying. Not once did it ever occur to me to pull my firearm on the other person. Good thing too, some of those heated arguments were with my wife. If one cannot control their temper to the point they don't know when to pull out a gun and when not, they really should never be carrying.

    That firearm comes out only when I feel my life or someone else's life is in danger. It's not there to assuage my hurt feelings or to seek vengeance. That's how I see what your friend did. He consciously, after getting beat up and the other guy left, leaned over the front seat, opened the glove box, grabbed the gun, opened the car door, aimed the gun at the other kid and said, "How brave do you feel now sucker?". This wasn't just anger, this was conscious and calculated. And what has your friend said he wanted to do if the other guy hadn't tried to disarm him? Just stand there awhile, perhaps? He raised the stakes and once raised, it's very difficult to come back down.

    This and I'm am in totally agreement with this, it is soooooo easy to go this way since having a gun and not just him anyone of us. This is why we have to always act wise and to keep this running in ours minds because at the heat of the moment we can react quickly and before we relies what just happen and it's too late. I agree if my life or the life of my love ones is in jeopardy that gun don't come out.

  10. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Dollar View Post
    There's another point that's being over looked here the OP's buddy pointed a loaded weapon at the bad guy and the bad guy wasn't intimidated in the least. As a matter of fact the bad guy attacked the OP's buddy when there was no doubt that he was armed.

    So much for the firearm as deterent theory
    Drunk is as drunk does. Give a person enough booze or drugs and a howitzer isn't scary. I don't think this situation speaks to the deterrent factor in most cases.
    Typos are for the entertainment of the reader. Don't let it go to your head!

  11. #50
    Thanks for speaking to the point of the OP. While the situation was tragic for all involved I think its an excellent teaching tool. You guys have pointed out a couple things I hadn't thought of. As for the "light" sentence of 5 years in State prison I can only speculate the judge felt the deceased was partially responsible for the outcome. Knowing the shooter well I can tell you he has experienced deep remorse over pulling his pistol from his glovebox...the kind of remorse that is all encompassing and never goes away. Its been some 20 years now and still haunts him - and I'm sure the young man's family too. And it always brings me back to the driving advice I heard from a friend even older than I am. "They can't cut you off if you let them in." Which I'm only guessing is what started the sad sequence of events...one of them cut the other off...

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