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Thread: Real Life Encounter

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverkilt View Post
    Thanks for speaking to the point of the OP. While the situation was tragic for all involved I think its an excellent teaching tool. You guys have pointed out a couple things I hadn't thought of. As for the "light" sentence of 5 years in State prison I can only speculate the judge felt the deceased was partially responsible for the outcome. Knowing the shooter well I can tell you he has experienced deep remorse over pulling his pistol from his glovebox...the kind of remorse that is all encompassing and never goes away. Its been some 20 years now and still haunts him - and I'm sure the young man's family too. And it always brings me back to the driving advice I heard from a friend even older than I am. "They can't cut you off if you let them in." Which I'm only guessing is what started the sad sequence of events...one of them cut the other off...
    That pretty much sums it up. Mas Ayoob once said if you use a gun in self-defense, whether you're right or wrong it will probably ruin your life. Lawyers, stress, money and remorse. All things that enter the situation.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    That pretty much sums it up. Mas Ayoob once said if you use a gun in self-defense, whether you're right or wrong it will probably ruin your life. Lawyers, stress, money and remorse. All things that enter the situation.
    I would agree with this statement by itself. However, in the context of this thread, the gunman did not use it in self defense. He used it for revenge.

    After getting beat up (and there were plenty of ways he could have avoided this, but most especially by not pulling over, by heading to the police station, by not playing auto tag, etc.), and after the perpetrator walked away, he leaned over his front seat, he opened the glove box, he retrieved his pistol, he opened the car door, he got out of the car, he aimed at the other man who was walking away and exclaimed "Sucker, how brave do you feel now?". At what point was this self-defense? At this point the only one trying to defend himself was the man without the gun.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

  4. #53
    Just happened across an old episode of COPS where two guys were playing Ping-Pong. A fight broke out over the game. One guy beat up the other guy pretty bad. The guy being beat up had a concealed permit and pulled his compact pistol and shot the guy beating him up - twice in the gut and once in the arm. Shooter was arrested.

  5. #54
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    Wow....talk about close...

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverkilt View Post
    This happened in Phoenix, Arizona about 20 years ago, before cell phones. A good friend of mine was a Sgt. in the Air Guard and sold vacuum cleaners at night. He dealt in cash and carried his 1911 in the glove box of his Bronco. One hot July night he became involved in a road rage incident with a 30 year old guy who'd spent the day at Traffic Survival School then gone drinking. My friend and the kid played auto tag around town for quite a while. Finally my friend pulled over and the kid pulled up behind him, leaped out of his ride, and began punching my friend in the face through the open window of the Bronco. My friend wears eyeglasses and the kid punched him in the face and glasses a few time then turned and walked away. My friend got his 1911 out of the glove box, got out of the Bronco and drew down on the kid saying something to the effect of "How brave do you feel now sucker?" In response the kid made a grab for the 1911 - like in the movies - when he did he actually pulled on the 1911 causing it to discharge. The bulled severed his aorta and he bled out. His last words were, "Mommy....mommy...." He bled out so completely that the coroner got his blood alcohol level from his eyeball fluid - 0.07 - drunk enough to be stupid.

    My friend was tried in Maricopa County Superior Court. The "Victim's" family was there wearing roses. My friend's family and friends were there in support. A really sad situation. My friend was convicted of manslaughter and did 5 years in state prison. No NRA to help him. County prosecutor told him he was the victim until he introduced a pistol into a fist fight. No one made an issue of his finger being on the trigger but it sure makes sense when a guy who's already beat you is coming back at you.

    This sad event helped me see the reality of the consequences of drawing...yet I hope it wouldn't keep me from protecting myself when needed.

    My friend said over and over he never wanted to kill the drunk kid, he just didn't want to get hit again....but it was his anger that drove the road games and that got him out of his ride to approach the kid after being punched out.

    Don't know that there's any right and wrong...just what happened one sad July night in Phoenix.
    WOW! I had a road rage incident occur last week with a gentleman (and I use that term loosely with this clown) who decided that he didnt like me using my horn to move him out of the passing lane on the highway (he was doing 40 mph in a 65)...I looked in his car (big mistake) and saw him smoking out of some sort of pipe. He looked up and saw me and lost it- long story short, he began fumbling around for something in his car, while trying to force me off the road, all the while yelling "You're ********* dead!" out his window.

    Because I reside on the MA/CT State border, the way I saw it, I had three choices:
    1) Pull over on 91 before I crossed the State Line into CT (I have to do so just to go BACK to my house in MA) and risk a confrontation while awaiting the State Police
    2) Attempt to exit 91 and HOPE none of the three sets of lights were red, thus risking a confrontation out of State, where, legally, I'm not licensed anyway
    or
    3) Hammer it, call 911, and see what happens

    I chose Option #3- To this day, I have zero clue what that guy was on, or, if the CT State Police picked him up. All I know is, I took what I felt was the LEAST confrontational of the three options. Was it the best option? Maybe not, but, no one was hurt and my gun stayed in its holster- win/win in my mind.

    When I read stories like this, it makes me rethink my CCW options DAILY, especially here in MA, where most of the public abhors anyone other than an LEO owning/carrying a firearm...Go Figure.

  6. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colinsdad View Post
    WOW! I had a road rage incident occur last week with a gentleman (and I use that term loosely with this clown) who decided that he didnt like me using my horn to move him out of the passing lane on the highway (he was doing 40 mph in a 65)...I looked in his car (big mistake) and saw him smoking out of some sort of pipe. He looked up and saw me and lost it- long story short, he began fumbling around for something in his car, while trying to force me off the road, all the while yelling "You're ********* dead!" out his window.

    Because I reside on the MA/CT State border, the way I saw it, I had three choices:
    1) Pull over on 91 before I crossed the State Line into CT (I have to do so just to go BACK to my house in MA) and risk a confrontation while awaiting the State Police
    2) Attempt to exit 91 and HOPE none of the three sets of lights were red, thus risking a confrontation out of State, where, legally, I'm not licensed anyway
    or
    3) Hammer it, call 911, and see what happens

    I chose Option #3- To this day, I have zero clue what that guy was on, or, if the CT State Police picked him up. All I know is, I took what I felt was the LEAST confrontational of the three options. Was it the best option? Maybe not, but, no one was hurt and my gun stayed in its holster- win/win in my mind.

    When I read stories like this, it makes me rethink my CCW options DAILY, especially here in MA, where most of the public abhors anyone other than an LEO owning/carrying a firearm...Go Figure.
    And, in my opinion, your experience illustrates the wisdom of the old saying........

    "The best way to avoid a gunfight is to not be there."

    Well done!

  7. #56
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    Bikenut- Thank you for your response!
    I did an "after-action report" of sorts with a good friend who's an NRA instructor, and, he agreed that the best action in my case was to avoid the confrontation at all costs, especially considering where I was at the time. Living on the State line always presents its own set of challenges...
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  8. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colinsdad View Post
    WOW! I had a road rage incident occur last week with a gentleman (and I use that term loosely with this clown) who decided that he didnt like me using my horn to move him out of the passing lane on the highway (he was doing 40 mph in a 65)...I looked in his car (big mistake) and saw him smoking out of some sort of pipe. He looked up and saw me and lost it- long story short, he began fumbling around for something in his car, while trying to force me off the road, all the while yelling "You're ********* dead!" out his window.

    Because I reside on the MA/CT State border, the way I saw it, I had three choices:
    1) Pull over on 91 before I crossed the State Line into CT (I have to do so just to go BACK to my house in MA) and risk a confrontation while awaiting the State Police
    2) Attempt to exit 91 and HOPE none of the three sets of lights were red, thus risking a confrontation out of State, where, legally, I'm not licensed anyway
    or
    3) Hammer it, call 911, and see what happens

    I chose Option #3- To this day, I have zero clue what that guy was on, or, if the CT State Police picked him up. All I know is, I took what I felt was the LEAST confrontational of the three options. Was it the best option? Maybe not, but, no one was hurt and my gun stayed in its holster- win/win in my mind.

    When I read stories like this, it makes me rethink my CCW options DAILY, especially here in MA, where most of the public abhors anyone other than an LEO owning/carrying a firearm...Go Figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    And, in my opinion, your experience illustrates the wisdom of the old saying........

    "The best way to avoid a gunfight is to not be there."

    Well done!
    I agree with bikenut with one exception. The horn is not meant to move people out of the fast lane, the entire situation could have been avoided before the three options you gave if you didn't honk your horn. But given the horn was honked, evading a physical confrontation was definitely the best option.

    Personally, I'll wait for someone else to pass the slow driver on the right, or if in certain situations I will pass on the right if safe to do so, which usually gets them to change lanes. Horns tend to push people's buttons to easily. YMMV.

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    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  9. #58
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    Sir, the fact of the matter was that, where he was, coupled with the traffic, my ONLY option was to get him to move...the fact he was bobbing and weaving had me reaching for my cell already to call him in. My point of my post was to reiterate that reaching for our CCW's SHOULD be our absolute LAST option.
    Like I said, could I handled it better? Most definitely. I chalk it up as a learning experience.
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  10. #59
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    The following is a general comment directed at no single individual or groups of individuals.........

    While I most certainly do not believe in intentionally causing a confrontation, as in a confrontation was what I wanted to have happen, I also personally do not believe in the idea that I am responsible for the decisions and/or actions of someone else. My using my horn to alert someone to a light change, a soft tire, or being high/drunk in the fast lane, does NOT make me responsible for their subsequent violent reaction.

    I get so tired of hearing folks say something along the lines of:

    "Well, if I hadn't pissed him off he would have left me alone."

    as if it is the victim's fault the bad guy decided to get pissed off and harm them. Think about that "If I hadn't pissed him off" perspective and the psychological dynamics of a battered woman (perpetual victim) who is afraid to do anything that might/could/maybe piss off the guy who beats her... and then believes she deserved to be beaten because she did something to piss off the bad guy. And then consider.... does anyone really think it is their fault they were harmed by a bad guy who is high/drunk/raging because they beeped their horn in traffic?

    Good heavens! If we go through life being afraid that any (legal) actions we might take could/maybe/might result in someone taking it upon themselves to make the decision to become violent... we might just as well hide under the covers and never even get out of bed.

  11. #60
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    Bikenut-
    I could not have said it any better myself! Frankly, angry/violent confrontation(s) are the reason I pursued my CCW here in MA, which, is a VERY lengthy process. That being said, does that mean I draw down on every person that gets angry at me? No. I'm certainly not responsible for how other people address their issue(s), but, I'm sure as hell responsible for mine!
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