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Thread: Church Carry

  1. The Texas church I attend: I carry (Currently a Diamondback DB380, thinner/as light as a P3AT or LCP, but works like a Glock, to be supplemented by a Microtech Archangel MCP 9mm [weighs 7.1 ounces], as soon as my dealer/Deacon gets one)

    I'm carrying, plus all deacons have concealed handgun licenses and carry too, as well as the Pastor.
    I can't tell you whether others in the congregation do or not, but they are welcome to, if licensed to.
    A couple of us who rent tables at gun shows actually do some trading/swapping etc there while visiting with each other, so quite a few of us are carrying for a lawful purpose there anyway. There may be 50 or 60 guns at my church on any given Sunday.

    We won't be putting up a 30.06 sign prohibiting.

    Texas Penal Code - Section 46.035. Unlawful Carrying Of Handgun By License Holder
    (i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
    if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

    Heck no we won't put up a sign
    1) We're Texans
    2) We hate rattlesnakes.
    3 ) We want to be able to protect ourselves and our family and other church members from rattlenakes, whether it is human or reptilian. And, I'd hope that if another church member is in a position to protect our family and other church members from rattlenakes, they'd do it too.
    -----------

    Off topic, but since mentioned:
    School parking lots in Texas:


    Any person apparently may have a gun in their car in Texas, according to Motorist Protection Act + Castle doctrine etc
    Publication LS-16 by the Texas DPS states that "there is no law prohibiting a license holder from possessing a handgun in their vehicle in a school parking lot"

    There is a Federal, and Texas (Education Code, not Penal Code) prohibition against using, threatening to use, ehibiting oor threatening to exhibit a gun in a "gun-free" zone and it's a third degree felony, which can by virtue of enhancement be a second degree felony.

    Premises for conviction purposes refers to a building, and excludes parking lots, sidewalks etc, however, for the gun-free zone enhancement, the definition of premesis points to health and safety code which defines it as the real property, and all appurtenances ....

    Leave it in the car, or stay in the car if wearing it.
    -------
    While true that
    Penal Code Sec. 46.035
    Sub section (f)
    (3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

    Be aware that:

    THERE ARE: 2 definitions of "premises" for 2 purposes

    Penal Code 46.03 refers to Penal Code 46.035 (f)(3) for a definition BUT
    PENAL CODE 46.11(1) "Institution of higher education" and "premises"
    have the meanings assigned by Section 481.134, Health and Safety
    Code.




    Whereas regarding Penal Code 46.03 refers to Penal Code 46.035 (f)(3)
    (3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a
    building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
    street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
    parking area.


    Here's a difference, and different defiinition pointed to regarding 46.11

    Note that PENAL CODE 46.11 PENALTY IF OFFENSE COMMITTED WITHIN WEAPON-FREE
    SCHOOL ZONE(1) "Institution of higher education" and "premises"
    have the meanings assigned by Section 481.134, Health and Safety
    Code.

    Texas Health & Safety Code - Section 481.134. Drug-Free Zones
    481.134. DRUG-FREE ZONES.
    (a) In this section:
    (4) "Premises" means real property and all buildings
    and appurtenances pertaining to the real property.
    (b) This section does not apply to an offense under Section
    46.03(a)(1).


    (For example, it's a 3rd degree felony to threaten to exhibit it or exhibit it in a school parking lot, which is NOT a Penal Code 46.03(1) offense, (carrying in a school building, or portion of a building) but is an offense under Texas Education Code 37.125 ... and for enhancement of penalty purposes, for licensed or unlicensed, the definition expanded to the "within 300 feet of the premises (real property) of a school " and could possibly be a second degree felony, instead of third degree, with the enhancement)


    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u.../htm/ED.37.htm
    EDUCATION CODE
    TITLE 2. PUBLIC EDUCATION
    SUBTITLE G. SAFE SCHOOLS
    CHAPTER 37. DISCIPLINE; LAW AND ORDER

    Sec. 37.125. EXHIBITION OF FIREARMS. (a) A person commits an offense if, in a manner intended to cause alarm or personal injury to another person or to damage school property, the person intentionally exhibits, uses, or threatens to exhibit or use a firearm:

    (1) in or on any property, including a parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area, that is owned by a private or public school; or

    (2) on a school bus being used to transport children to or from school-sponsored activities of a private or public school.

    (b) An offense under this section is a third degree felony.



    Added by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 260, Sec. 1, eff. May 30, 1995.

    Amended by:

    Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 704, Sec. 1, eff. September 1, 2007.
    -----------
    Do I carry concealed while taking the kids to or picking them up at school, yes, and I stay in the car. If I MUST exit my car, the gun stays in the car, concealed, not exhibited, just be careful it isn't seen while moving it off your person if you must do that.... or I remove it from my IWB holster and conceal it within my vehicle before entering school property if there's any chance I may need to get out of my car


    I'm not a lawyer.

  2.   
  3. i had a discusion with my Pastor when I first got my permit. We talked about why i carry. he understood all the reasons. He knows that when I attend services with an untucked dress shirt that he's not to ask questions about my sloppy dress. I am actually considered by the Pastor to be "his" personal security detail. He has been keeping himself up to date with all the junk happening in chruches across the Country. i guess the bottom line in my Church is CCW is very much accepted. I'm not sure, but I am likely the only gun in the pew on Sunday morning.

    To the OP,
    not sure what to tell your brother. if he ccw's otside of church... whats his deal? He knows you ccw too. so, whats the beef with you carrying your 2nd amend rights into the Church?

    The Bible says in Luke 22:36
    he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    It seems to me that ones right to self protection was expected way back in Biblical times. Today when can safely assume the transition from a sword to a firearm. I believe that Christ would have used the word gun/firearm had there been such an item at that time. There were no guns back then, rather a sword.

    Ope your Bible this Sunday morning and show your brother this passage in Luke. Then have a nice little discussion about it whit him.

    In the end the both of you need to respect each others opinions on the matter.

    This is the same debate I've had with my Dad. He's never carried his duty weapon into the church. Somehow, he feels its not right. I disagree, and carry every Sunday. (i prefer to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. Also, I know that I shall stand someday in front of St. Peter to face my Judgement. A prospect that I have no fear of.)

  4. #93

    Church Carry

    I think the act of carring a gun in church is fine. I would be concermed your brother saw it print under you sweater. In my church I worry about someone giving me a unexpected hug and putting their hand on my gun. I would need my pasters permission leagally here in Ohio and would want him to know

  5. #94
    All I can say is don't start no trouble in my Church (I'am just saying)

  6. #95
    RPB, Thanks for your detailed description of parking lots as related to schools. So basically if you stay in your car and are not fiddlin with your CCW then you should be good and if you get out of your car leave it in your vehicle. Makes sence. Great job on the post.

    Back to the point of my post.. My new holster did everything I needed it to do. Concealed means concealed, after church my dad had lunch with us at the house and as I was going in to change my shirt, he noticed the butt of my 45 on my side (Had only my t-shirt on at this point) He had to ask if I had my gun during church and was surprised when I said yes. To be completely honest I never thought about the weapon on my side. I guess it has become a part of my "normal wardrobe" sooner than I thought it would.

  7. Glad that new holster is working out well

    Concealment:
    Since I lost my "love handles" I have thought about a "bump in my shirt" too
    That could just as well be an insulin pump bump under the shirt.
    A bump under a shirt is a bump under a shirt.
    A waist/fanny pack is a waist/fanny pack
    A vest is a vest
    But if it is not "concealed" per the legal definition of "concealed" that's another matter.

    Motorist Protection Act ... pretty clear language "in plain view"
    http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodo...f/HB01815F.pdf

    Q: What does "concealed" mean?
    I agree with your statement, obvious to those of us who know the definition, "CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED!"

    But, for further clarification, to anyone ELSE reading this and asking later:

    1) According to the actual legal definition:
    Texas Government Code - Section 411.171. Definitions
    (3) "Concealed Handgun" means a handgun, the presence of which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person.


    Note "openly discernible " "ordinary observation of a reasonable person" rather than "someone who knows you are a CHL and looking for a bump in your shirt"

    2) According to the Texas Department of Public Safety, “‘Concealed’ means that the weapon cannot be visible, and that its presence cannot be discernible through ordinary observation. It is a criminal offense for a license holder to carry a handgun in plain view, or to intentionally fail to conceal the weapon.”

    Here's a handy paragraph I keep as my guideline, but it isn't "Legal Advice":
    A concealed handgun license holder who displays his or her handgun or otherwise intentionally reveals (or, "Exhibits?" or "unintentionally/accidently fails to conceal?" ... I don't know, I'm no Lawyer)
    that he or she is carrying a concealed handgun is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor (TX PC 46.035[a]).
    If the weapon is displayed in a manner intended to cause alarm, the license holder is also guilty of a Class B misdemeanor (TX PC 42.01[a][8]),
    unless the incident takes place on school property, in which case the license holder is guilty of a third degree felony (TX EDC 37.125[a]),
    which could be enhanced to a second degree felony, PENAL CODE 46.11.





    My niece, in band, puts on a lot of shows in the school parking lot, that's a school activity, so I researched it a while back.

    Now I don't know offhand the difference in "Exhibit" and "Failure to Conceal" and "display" but, since even I don't know, I'd hate for an ignorant teacher to call the ignorant school district police and me get arrested by the Ignorant School Police and face an Ignorant anti-gun jury with kids at that school, trying to prove a difference regarding Mens Rea/Intent (to "exhibit" or "Display" or "intentionally fail to conceal" or "intentionally display") and why 2 definitions of premesis are used and not to use the health and safety code definition to convict for an offense, but only to enhance a conviction which shouldn't occur if they used the Penal Code definition, and then selling my house to pay for an appeal, all because it was a windy day and my shirt blew up, and there's no way a jury, whose kids go to that school, and were in the parking lot that day which had the signs "Gun Free, Drug Free, Tobacco Free Zone" posted, would understand all that legal stuff.... The risk and weight of the penalty exceeds what I'm willing to spend to attempt to challenge/defend it.

    At other places, if someone I don't know notices a bump in my shirt and mentions it, while I turn my holster side away from them, I guess I could say, oh excuse me, I better go to the bathroom and adjust my insulin pump. Or: "Oops, I'm glad my Colostomy Bag/urine bag didn't break, I better go to the bathroom and empty it or adjust it, want to join me in the bathroom?, It may smell bad, and might be embarassing for me, so we can talk later, OK?"

    A bump in a shirt is a bump in a shirt.
    Like you said, Concealed is concealed.
    "Concealed Handgun" means a handgun, the presence of which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person
    Only if the bump in the shirt is obviously a handgun, "openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person" there's a failure to conceal. But not because another CHL holder/person who knows you and knows you are a CHL holder is looking for, or notices, a bump in a shirt and knows why it is there, at church or elsewhere.

    Also, another side-note:
    Yesterday ... One news station says was a kid OFF CAMPUS (another news station says "on school property") at Austin High School, fired 9 shots into a car IN the School Parking lot. He's being charged as an adult, $500,000.00 bond
    Shooting outside Austin High School | KXAN.com
    Arrest made in shooting incident near Austin high school | kvue.com | News
    statesman.com

    I'm not a lawyer, that's my Layman's opinion, not legal advice.

  8. #97
    Do not take any advice from this posting. Doing so can get you into serious trouble with the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910 View Post
    Very sad but a reality sometimes. There are lots who will argue with me but I like the way the law reads in SC. You cannot carry in a church without the permission of the preacher/board. At first this seems terrible but think of it this way.

    You go ahead and carry your gun to church. For whatever reason the police find it on you. Unless they get the permission of the preacher/board to arrest you he cannot because if they say do not arrest you then they have given permission. If they say it is OK to arrest you then you must not be on their good side. Basically it boils down to the preacher/board must have you arrested. Now if you are ahard worker in the church and one of the good ole boys then they aren't going to have you arrested. If you aren't one of the good ole boys then you may need to look for a different church. What the law actually says is that the individual church decides if it is OK to carry, doesn't have to post signs one way or the other and doesn't have to make any formal declaration unless there is a need. All you have to do is be friends with the preacher and board, don't even have to discuss it with them ahead of time if you don't want to. Even if you ask and they say no are they still going to let you go to jail for it? If so you may be at the wrong church.
    For a church or other established religious sanctuary to give you permission to carry, they need to do so in writing for it to be legal. They can do so in at least three different ways, writing individual letters of permission, writing a blanket permission which would then be known to the public at large (i.e. signs, line in the buletin), or writing a clause into the church rules of membership (which presumable every member reads when they join the church). If your church has not taken one of these three actions, you cannot carry into the church. It is not up to the pastor whether or not someone who did not obtain proper permission can be arrested, per SC law they can be.

    If you are found to be carrying illegally (without prior permission) in a church the punishment is upto one year in jail or a one thousand dollar fine or both. Please note that when a $1000 fine is levied by a court in the state of SC the actual ammount that you pay is $2025. Heck of a price to pay for not obtaining a permission slip.

    Unfortunately this is one of many examples of how SC is a Shall-Issue* state. If you meet the objective standards for obtaining the carry permit, you shall be issued the permit*. (*But there are so many loopholes and exceptions in the permit law that it makes carrying on a regular basis either imposible or impractical.)

  9. #98
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, SC
    Posts
    143
    Per SC law you are incorrect:

    (9) church or other established religious sanctuary unless express permission is given by the appropriate church official or governing body; or

    You need permission but nothing says that it has to be in writing in order to be legal.

  10. Wow.
    Until everyone gets their State laws fixed in order to respect the constitutional rights to worship, and to bear arms, in order to protect that right to worship (from extremists, terrorists, or whomever,) I'm sure glad to live in Texas.

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