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Thread: Church Carry

  1. First of all, thanks Chroode for your thoughtful and helpful explanation of your church's security plans.

    As a Pastor, I am reminded that part of my job is the protection of those that call the church I serve "home." (Did you know that in the Bible "Pastor" is usually translated shepherd). A primary task of the shepherd is the protection of the flock, thus David's experiences in 1 Sa 17:34-35: "But David said to Saul, 'Your servant has been keeping his fatherís sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it.'"

    Probably along with a lot of other pastors, I am thinking freshly about how our church would respond to an active shooter situation. What grips me are the two common facts of almost every shooting situation in churches or other public venues: a) the shooters typically intend to harm/kill as many as they can, and b) they usually end the situation by taking their own life (90% of the time).

    So I don't feel that it is inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus or the tenets of the Christian faith for a church to be prepared to preserve innocent life (the congregants) and if that requires killing the "bear/lion" (shooter) that poses a mortal threat to the "sheep", so be it.

    GeneralSumter, you state...
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralSumter View Post
    Further, the verse quoted by many (Luke 22:36) to "get Jesus on their side" regarding self-defense is taken out of context.
    Would you care to back up that statement with your take on the proper context of that passage? Undoubtedly, it is a very difficult passage, but for the sake of clarity, I'd love to hear you fuller thoughts on it.

    Great discussion and very timely given the events (IL, AL, Germany) of this week.

    Rev (Pastor Mike in real life)

  2.   
  3. #72
    Join Date
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    In Ohio, we need permission. I carried in my church for the first time last Sunday. Kinda ironic. My wife was actually in the nursery w/ our baby and had some strange thought about one of those "situations". Then, of all things, look what tragedy befell the community in IL that fateful Sunday. I wrote my pastor a letter regarding this issue. I have enclosed it in case someone would care to copy it, or use it as an outline for their own pastoral conversaions.

    As far as the quote on Luke 22:36 goes, I married a PK (preachers kid) and have discussions w/ pop about topics such as this. Now, granted he is biased being in Canada, but you can't refute The Word. While Jesus did say to turn the other cheek, people still need to be protected. Remember, even He lost his temper RIGHTEOUSLY in the temple against the money changers turning His house into a den of thieves.Like The Book says, "there is a time for everything." Also, for those who quote the DO NOT KILL commandment, if it was taught as was intended, it would read DO NOT MURDER. Remember, David was praised for his kills in battle as well as numerous other warriors throughout the Bible. It is when you are not justified and take the life of another in the act of murder, such as David did when he sent Uriah into the thick of the battle. That was when he did wrong. I do not believe defending oneself is bad, but that is my personal belief.

    So, I shall continue to carry in church. Hence, the CONCEALED part. I would rather live life knowing I did good, then wishing I did not have to run to my car & waste valuable time, if it is at all possible to do in such a situation. Good luck in your choices. Oh, BTW, a lot of good insight on the subject on killing, and God's viewpoints were from the book "On Killing" by David Grossman. It was a good read, especially the footnotes in the back.

    Hey Patrick,

    This is xxx xxxxxxx. I have been trying to find a moment when you are alone to have a quick talk w/ you for awhile. I will try and cut this as short and sweet as I can.
    I have an Ohio concealed carry permit. This as you probably know allows me to carry a handgun in most places other than government buildings, mental institutions, schools, and establishments serving alcohol. I am allowed to carry in a church as long as I have permission. I have passed a state mandated class, and a background check before I was able to obtain my permit. Statistically, permit holders do not commit crimes, do not hold a vigilante mindset (more so the opposite such as a sheepdog protecting the sheep), nor do we go out looking for trouble. In fact, CCW permit holders are just like the rest of peaceful society, we are just a little more alert to what is going on in our surroundings. We are those who feel the need to be prepared, especially in today's volatile society to protect ourselves and our loved ones. Sometimes, we even act on the behalf of strangers in harms way if so deems necessary. We are generally peaceful, caring people such as yourself. We have just chosen to walk the path of protector, of our own lives, and our families. We know we are not law enforcement official, and do not go out searching for crimes being committed. We leave the crimes to those who are trained to handle those situations. But, we DO realize the fact that the police cannot be there every minute of the day to protect us. The average response time for police is roughly 22 minutes, and that is in an area more populated than the places we reside in out here. With statistics such as that, it is an unfortunate realization that about the only good the police will do at that point in time is to clean up the mess,and try to put the facts together in solving the crime that has been committed. We refuse to become victims, and more statistics.
    You are probably aware of the rise of shootings, especially those involving churches as of late. In fact, the frequency of public shootings in general have increased. This may only be due to the fact that the world has gotten a whole lot smaller as of late, and we can now tune in to multiple news sources. But, you cannot deny the fact that they are happening indeed. A sad fact is that they are happening in areas deemed to be gun free zones.(We refer to them as victim disarmament zones)The sad fact is these heinous crimes usually are in areas in which the public are unable to defend themselves. Criminals are professional, and they are cowards. To them, this IS their job, so if they run the risk of being injured, it will take from their means of support. Of course, there are a small percentage who would commit these acts no matter if there was a possibility of resistance or not. Thankfully, this is a small percent of the criminal population that holds to this mindset.
    I really do not care to leave my sidearm in my vehicle, seeing as it is out of my reach, and a possibility for someone to break into my vehicle and then obtain it, along with my vehicle or whatever else is in there. What the basis of this letter serves is to ask for your permission to keep my sidearm in the safest place possible, on my side. It is called a CONCEALED carry permit, concealed being the key word. While Ohio is an open carry state, it is a hassle to do so. The vast majority of the public has been trained to fear guns, and react to them in numerous ways, usually for the worst. (Panicking,making a scene, calling the police, and making the situation worse than it has to be.) I do not hold this against them, they are only acting in what they feel their best interest. When properly carried, no one is the wiser to the fact the person standing beside them has a weapon at their side.
    So, in closing, I would like to thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to read and consider my request.

    Sincerely, xxx xxxxxxx
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf". ~George Orwell / Rudyard Kipling

  4. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by rev View Post
    First of all, thanks Chroode for your thoughtful and helpful explanation of your church's security plans.

    As a Pastor, I am reminded that part of my job is the protection of those that call the church I serve "home." (Did you know that in the Bible "Pastor" is usually translated shepherd). A primary task of the shepherd is the protection of the flock, thus David's experiences in 1 Sa 17:34-35: "But David said to Saul, 'Your servant has been keeping his fatherís sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it.'"

    Probably along with a lot of other pastors, I am thinking freshly about how our church would respond to an active shooter situation. What grips me are the two common facts of almost every shooting situation in churches or other public venues: a) the shooters typically intend to harm/kill as many as they can, and b) they usually end the situation by taking their own life (90% of the time).

    So I don't feel that it is inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus or the tenets of the Christian faith for a church to be prepared to preserve innocent life (the congregants) and if that requires killing the "bear/lion" (shooter) that poses a mortal threat to the "sheep", so be it.

    GeneralSumter, you state...


    Would you care to back up that statement with your take on the proper context of that passage? Undoubtedly, it is a very difficult passage, but for the sake of clarity, I'd love to hear you fuller thoughts on it.

    Great discussion and very timely given the events (IL, AL, Germany) of this week.

    Rev (Pastor Mike in real life)
    +1 for Pastor Mike!! I could not agree more.
    Big Gay Al: Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    An unarmed person speaking of the benefits of gun control is like a
    eunuch speaking about the benefits of sexual abstinence.

  5. #74
    Louisiana Prohibited Locations

    R.S. 40:1379.3 (N) states that no concealed handgun may be carried into and no concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this Section shall authorize or entitle a permittee to carry a concealed handgun in any of the following:

    A law enforcement office, station, or building;

    A detention facility, prison, or jail;

    A courthouse or courtroom, provided that a judge may carry such a weapon in his own courtroom;

    A polling place;

    A meeting place of the governing authority of a political subdivision;

    The state capitol building;

    Any portion of an airport facility where the carrying of firearms is prohibited under federal law, except that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, if the firearm is encased for shipment, for the purpose of checking such firearm as lawful baggage;

    Any church, synagogue, mosque or similar place of worship;

    A parade or demonstration for which a permit is issued by a governmental entity;

    Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.

    Any school "firearm free zone" as defined in R.S. 14:95.6.

    The provisions of R.S. 40:1379.3 (N) shall not limit the right of a property owner, lessee, or other lawful custodian to prohibit or restrict access of those persons possessing a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued under this Section. No individual to whom a concealed handgun permit is issued may carry such concealed handgun into the private residence of another without first receiving the consent of that person.
    SI VIS PACEM, PARABELLUM
    "If you seek peace, prepare for war"

  6. #75
    I am a worship pastor and the only weapon I carry into the church is my trusty sword, the Word of God!

    Ok, no… just kidding! :)

    But, seriously… I do not CCW in church—because I’m loaded down with wireless gear and a guitar when I’m on stage! I know, that’s not good if a bad guy comes bouncing into the church. However, our staff and church leaders have developed a security procedure that incorporates designated, armed personnel and a plan for handling emergency situations. We may not be able to account for every possible scenario, but we have recognized the very real possibility of danger and have taken steps to prepare for the proper handling of such.

    So, although I’m not personally CCW on Sunday mornings, the reassuring part is knowing there are several LEO’s and about half a dozen other CCW members who have been trained and are alert to respond in emergency situations. I don’t like being naked, but were I to attempt to CCW on stage—I would not be able to keep my weapon concealed. Therefore I do not.

    However, were I not ON every Sunday, I would CCW just as I do when I go to the grocery store, or a restaurant… etc. It is not disallowed in Florida or Texas; however, if a Texas church were to post a legit 30.06 sign prohibiting firearms on the premise, it would then be illegal to CCW. I have done ministry all over the State of Texas and never come across a church that did prohibit firearms! We love our God and our guns in Texas! :)

    And… one final thought, from a Pastoral point of view with regards to using Luke 22 as a passage to back your desire to CCW in church, or anywhere else for that matter! Jesus in those passages was not advocating the disciples literally go sell their cloak to buy a sword. Jesus frequently used physical objects (i.e., seeds, lamps, vineyards, coins, lost sheep, etc.) to teach nonphysical, universal truths. Just as in Matthew 10:34 (niv) where he said, “I came not to bring peace, but a sword.”

    That same verse in the Message says it like this, “I’ve come to cut—make a sharp knife-cut between son and father, daughter and mother—cut through these cozy domestic arrangements and free you for God. Well-meaning family members can be your worst enemies.”

    Jesus in this passage was not advocating a son take a sword to hack up his family! He was revealing that if you are to follow Christ fully, it may result in facing opposition—and that opposition might even come from close family relations! They’ll become your enemy! To truly follow Jesus means the possibility of seeing your family torn apart. And, that does happen—not as much in America as in other parts of the world—but, there are places where to embrace Christ means being completely cut off, if not outright murdered!

    The use of the swords is the same in Luke 22. Jesus had spent the prior three years of his ministry cruising from town to town with little to no opposition. He said, remember when I sent you out before, “I sent you without a purse, bag or sandals? And, did you lack anything?” His disciples had never really faced much opposition to this point in their walk with Jesus. The locals had all been quite friendly!

    But, know Jesus warns his disciples that in the days to come, the heat is going to be turned up! Following HIM would require a willingness to endure much hardship, even death—just as a soldier is willing to submit himself completely to the cause, giving his very life in battle if required.

    Had Jesus really been advocating the disciples literally arm themselves for a confrontation—do you really suppose he’d have stopped with two swords? What would two swords be enough for? Were they enough for Jesus to physically resist his arrest to come? No. Jesus had no intentions of resisting arrest. In fact, when that time came, Peter took his sword and sliced off the ear of one of the temple guards—and Jesus sternly told Peter to put away his sword, and then proceeded to put the dudes ear back on his face!

    You could perhaps use Luke 22 as a proof that Jesus apparently did not forbid his disciples carry of swords. Jesus didn’t rebuke Peter and exclaim, “Oh my goodness, Peter, where did that weapon come from!” And, there had been at least one other disciple who CC’d; earlier in the upper room, there had been two swords referenced.

    A handgun (like a sword) is a tool. Like just about any other tool, if you give man long enough, he’ll figure out how to do something bad with it. But, in a life threatening situation, I would have no reservations about using that tool to defend my life or the life of another. None whatsoever. And, I believe those actions are not only justified but required. Our forefathers recognized that when they codified these inalienable rights in the Constitution of the United States. But, regardless of whether the Government agrees or not, I have the right to defend myself—and will with deadly force by use of any tool I can get my hands on!

    My preferred tool these days is an H&K USP .40.
    Blessed be my God, my mountain, who trains me to fight fair and well! Psalm 144 (msg)
    ...follow me at twitter.com/matthewaynelson

  7. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by buddy47 View Post
    I agree! It truly is a sad day when in this country, We have to have armed gaurds in Church! a real sad day!
    Very sad but a reality sometimes. There are lots who will argue with me but I like the way the law reads in SC. You cannot carry in a church without the permission of the preacher/board. At first this seems terrible but think of it this way.

    You go ahead and carry your gun to church. For whatever reason the police find it on you. Unless they get the permission of the preacher/board to arrest you he cannot because if they say do not arrest you then they have given permission. If they say it is OK to arrest you then you must not be on their good side. Basically it boils down to the preacher/board must have you arrested. Now if you are ahard worker in the church and one of the good ole boys then they aren't going to have you arrested. If you aren't one of the good ole boys then you may need to look for a different church. What the law actually says is that the individual church decides if it is OK to carry, doesn't have to post signs one way or the other and doesn't have to make any formal declaration unless there is a need. All you have to do is be friends with the preacher and board, don't even have to discuss it with them ahead of time if you don't want to. Even if you ask and they say no are they still going to let you go to jail for it? If so you may be at the wrong church.

  8. #77
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthewaynelson View Post
    I am a worship pastor and the only weapon I carry into the church is my trusty sword, the Word of God!

    Ok, noÖ just kidding! :)

    But, seriouslyÖ I do not CCW in churchóbecause Iím loaded down with wireless gear and a guitar when Iím on stage! I know, thatís not good if a bad guy comes bouncing into the church.
    My preferred tool these days is an H&K USP .40.


    Blessed be my God, my mountain, who trains me to fight fair and well! Psalm 144 (msg)
    Pick up a keltec 32 or 380. Concealment will be a non-issue. If something happened and you were unarmed you would never forgive yourself if one of your congregation was injured whether or not you could have stopped it.
    Not carrying puts all the pressure on your team.

  9. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Jes View Post
    ... pick up a keltec 32 or 380. Concealment will be a non-issue.

    Thanks for the tip and advice Jes! :) Blessings...
    Blessed be my God, my mountain, who trains me to fight fair and well! Psalm 144 (msg)
    ...follow me at twitter.com/matthewaynelson

  10. #79
    I know this is an old thread, but I have to let all know what I found while reading the TX penal code... [Background] I go to a cowboy church so there is no problem carrying there, in fact the CHL class I took was at the church, but this was a different church so I called my pastor for a little guidance. He said that I would have to have permission from the minister before I could carry to the event. However, I did some reading I have included only the relevant parts of the statutes. I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but this is what I found:

    Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

    Sub section (b)
    (2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;

    (4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;

    (5) in an amusement park; or

    (6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

    Sub Section (c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.



    Sub section (f)
    (3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

    Sub Section (i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

    Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
    (1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
    (2) received notice that:
    (A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
    (B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.

    Notice that it is only illegal for CHL holders to carry at a hospital, church, amusement park, or government meeting if and only is there is signage stating the 30.06 statute.. Also the term premises excludes parking lost for schools. Just my 2 cents.

    Please If I am wrong let me know I do not want to be breaking any laws!

  11. #80
    Join Date
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    Northern Indiana
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdcleanfun View Post
    whether i'm preaching or not, i carry in church. Here is why.

    church shooting in tn

    church shooting in nj

    church shooting in co
    exactly!!

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