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Thread: When local business post no weapons

  1. #31
    This thread has wandered into the land of absurdity.

    On the far left are the wacko's that want gun free zones. Really ?!

    On the far right are the wacko's that want to open-carry into gun-free zones. Jeeze !?

    Somewhere in the middle are those who carry 24/7/365 who simply do not patronize gun-free zones, or who don't care one way or the other, same-same.

  2.   
  3. Quote Originally Posted by Blredneck13 View Post
    My question is when encountering a business with a no weapons sign on the door do you still carry your concealed firearm in the establishment?
    Itís so rare that I even encounter one of these signsÖ

    Years ago, I did knowingly walk past one. It was a theater some friends and I picked spontaneously and I didnít see the sign until my hand was on the door handle. Since I had ridden in a friendís car and there was nowhere for me to store the gun in a manner compliant with State law, I figure Iím legally in the wrong either way so I may as well just keep my mouth shut and carry-on. I was nervous the whole time as these signs had force-of-law. I was carrying a Glock 19, too, IWB holster at 3 oíclock with an ordinary t-shirt over it. Just goes to show that no oneís paying attention in the first place.

    The only way to end these signs is to make property owners liable for damage. ďNo Negros = no $$$Ē cards did not win the Civil Rights fight, and yes I regard being armed a Civil Right like being a member of a faith or being married. Get your people together and pass a couple laws making property owners liable, the signs will start disappearing overnight and in a few years the laws supporting the signage can be quietly repealed and there wonít be so much as a blip in the headlines over it.

  4. #33

  5. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackBook View Post
    It’s so rare that I even encounter one of these signs…

    Years ago, I did knowingly walk past one. It was a theater some friends and I picked spontaneously and I didn’t see the sign until my hand was on the door handle. Since I had ridden in a friend’s car and there was nowhere for me to store the gun in a manner compliant with State law, I figure I’m legally in the wrong either way so I may as well just keep my mouth shut and carry-on. I was nervous the whole time as these signs had force-of-law. I was carrying a Glock 19, too, IWB holster at 3 o’clock with an ordinary t-shirt over it. Just goes to show that no one’s paying attention in the first place.

    The only way to end these signs is to make property owners liable for damage. “No Negros = no $$$” cards did not win the Civil Rights fight, and yes I regard being armed a Civil Right like being a member of a faith or being married. Get your people together and pass a couple laws making property owners liable, the signs will start disappearing overnight and in a few years the laws supporting the signage can be quietly repealed and there won’t be so much as a blip in the headlines over it.
    James Holmes has proved that nobody is safe in movie theatres either.

    Even if they have metal detectors at the front door, someone like Holmes can go through security then sneak out the back exit and bring his gun(s) in that way.

    I carry 24/7/365 even to movie theatres.

    The only technical trick regarding crowded places like movie theatres is that you need to heed the safety rule about first considering your target and everything around and behind your target before you put your finger on the trigger to shoot.

    This will normally involve your getting down on one knee to shoot, so that the bullet travels at an angle from low to high and through your intended target and then up and away. This way the backstop for the bullets becomes the ceiling and walls instead of other innocent people.

    That's the only concealed carry issue with crowds anywhere.

    This needs to be practiced.

    So practice getting down on one knee (even if it hurts) and shoot that way if you are going to carry concealed into a movie theatre.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Yes it is. And a business is private property so....

    httphttp://smallbusiness.chron.com/l...-65571.html://

    The Legal Rights of a Business to Ban a Person From Their Property

    -snip-
    Property Owners' Rights

    Private property is any property owned by private persons and not by the government or reserved for public use. Private property includes buildings and real estate as well as objects and intellectual property. People who own property have the right to manage it and control it. A store, for example, is private property. Offering merchandise for sale implies an invitation to enter, but the store owner is entitled to ban someone from coming in.-snip-
    Bold added by me for emphasis...
    Just make sure it is not a gay person you ban.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillip69 View Post
    Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Yes it is. And a business is private property so....

    The Legal Rights of a Business to Ban a Person From Their Property | Chron.com

    The Legal Rights of a Business to Ban a Person From Their Property

    -snip-
    Property Owners' Rights

    Private property is any property owned by private persons and not by the government or reserved for public use. Private property includes buildings and real estate as well as objects and intellectual property. People who own property have the right to manage it and control it. A store, for example, is private property. Offering merchandise for sale implies an invitation to enter, but the store owner is entitled to ban someone from coming in.-snip-
    Bold added by me for emphasis...
    Just make sure it is not a gay person you ban.
    The government decreeing to the property owner that he must allow certain protected classes of people to enter under penalty of law is just as much an infringement upon the private property owner's right to deny entry as is the government decreeing that it is illegal to carry a concealed gun without a government permit an infringement upon the right to bear arms.

    Doesn't matter if I, you, or anyone agrees that gays should not be discriminated against or that folks should have to go through a background check/training before being allowed to concealed carry a gun. What matters is when the government decrees (forces under penalty of law) these things then they are an infringement by the government upon the right itself.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. - J. C. Watts

  8. #37

    When local business post no weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    The government decreeing to the property owner that he must allow certain protected classes of people to enter under penalty of law is just as much an infringement upon the private property owner's right to deny entry as is the government decreeing that it is illegal to carry a concealed gun without a government permit an infringement upon the right to bear arms.

    Doesn't matter if I, you, or anyone agrees that gays should not be discriminated against or that folks should have to go through a background check/training before being allowed to concealed carry a gun. What matters is when the government decrees (forces under penalty of law) these things then they are an infringement by the government upon the right itself.
    Still doing your pointless comparisons I see, huh?

    Who cares that it's an infringement to property owners about the law saying they can't discriminate against gays, a particular race, so on and so forth?

    Private property or not, when it's a public place that thousands and thousands of people go into every day, there's just certain things private property owners of public places just shouldn't be allowed to do and it's appalling and disgusting that you would even make that point about discrimination laws as being an infringement. Pathetic.

    Imagine what would happen if these people were allowed to discriminate against whoever they choose.

    Still gonna make pointless arguments about specific private property rights that's it's a good thing they don't have??

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    "Hello, 911? This is Joe, the manager at WalMart. There's a guy here in the store with a gun whom we have told to leave and he is refusing to leave. Saying something about his rights....."

    See how well that goes.... and make sure when the police get there to say something about prying your gun from your cold, dead hands.
    Or, at least in Michigan where there isn't any legal requirement for the manager or owner to first ask the guy carrying a gun to leave, the call could go something like this.....

    "Hello 911? This is the manager at ToysRUs and there's a guy here in the store with a gun and we have a no guns sign right on the front door for notification. I'm not going to say anything to him because he has a gun. Please send someone to arrest him for trespassing."

    And when the police get there the guy who thought he was getting away with sneaking his gun in should definitely explain to the cops how his right to carry his gun trumps the property owner's right to have him arrested for trespass ... and see how well that goes. Not to mention explaining that to the folks who have the power to take away his carry permit.

    And here is a cite and link to explain that part about there being no requirement to first ask someone to leave in Michigan.....

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/michigan.pdf

    Michigan

    -snip-
    Q: Is there a specific design for the no gun allowed sign? Does the law say where it has to be placed at a business, such as on the door or adjacent window leading into the business?
    A:
    There are no specifications for "No Guns" or "No Weapons" signs in Michigan law. Under the law, there are two ways for a CPL holder to know that guns are not allowed in a specific location. The first is the list of "Pistol Free Zones" (often colloquially referred to as violent criminal empowerment zones) that we must all memorize, which is part of the CPL statute (Pistol Free Areas).

    The second is when the owner or lessor of any real property communicates to us that our guns are not welcome there. That communication must be reasonable in order to be effective. By reasonable, I don't mean polite. I mean that there is an effective means of communicating to us that we are not welcome so long as we are carrying our guns. This can be done with a sign, verbally, or in some kind of printed material.

    For instance, if there is a reasonably-sized and located sign in a retail establishment indicating that guns or weapons are not allowed, that would constitute reasonable notice. If an employee of the same establishment actually tells you that you may not carry on the premises, that would constitute reasonable notice. If your employer has an employee handbook or some kind of printed guidelines, and includes a prohibition on guns and/or weapons, that would constitute reasonable notice.

    If you choose to ignore any such reasonable notice, then you become a trespasser rather than a business invitee. Trespass can be punished as a crime and/or in civil court, and could affect your CPL licensing status.

    Steve Dulan (Welcome to The Law Offices of Steven W. Dulan, PLC) is a member of the Board of Directors of the MCRGO and the MCRGO Foundation, and a member of the Board of Trustees of the MCRGO Foundation. He is an attorney in private practice in East Lansing and Adjunct Professor of firearms law at The Thomas M. Cooley Law School. as well as an Endowment Member of the NRA.
    -snip-
    Bold added by me for emphasis....

    And one last thing... it would be wise to know the laws, the actual laws of your own state and any state you may visit, and make your decisions about what you will do based on those actual laws instead of on what someone said on the internet they think they are or what they say they will do anyway.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. - J. C. Watts

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by corneileous View Post
    Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    The government decreeing to the property owner that he must allow certain protected classes of people to enter under penalty of law is just as much an infringement upon the private property owner's right to deny entry as is the government decreeing that it is illegal to carry a concealed gun without a government permit an infringement upon the right to bear arms.

    Doesn't matter if I, you, or anyone agrees that gays should not be discriminated against or that folks should have to go through a background check/training before being allowed to concealed carry a gun. What matters is when the government decrees (forces under penalty of law) these things then they are an infringement by the government upon the right itself.
    Still doing your pointless comparisons I see, huh?

    Who cares that it's an infringement to property owners about the law saying they can't discriminate against gays, a particular race, so on and so forth?

    Private property or not, when it's a public place that thousands and thousands of people go into every day, there's just certain things private property owners of public places just shouldn't be allowed to do and it's appalling and disgusting that you would even make that point about discrimination laws as being an infringement. Pathetic.

    Imagine what would happen if these people were allowed to discriminate against whoever they choose.

    Still gonna make pointless arguments about specific private property rights that's it's a good thing they don't have??
    As expected that didn't take long.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. - J. C. Watts

  11. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Or, at least in Michigan where there isn't any legal requirement for the manager or owner to first ask the guy carrying a gun to leave, the call could go something like this.....

    "Hello 911? This is the manager at ToysRUs and there's a guy here in the store with a gun and we have a no guns sign right on the front door for notification. I'm not going to say anything to him because he has a gun. Please send someone to arrest him for trespassing."

    And when the police get there the guy who thought he was getting away with sneaking his gun in should definitely explain to the cops how his right to carry his gun trumps the property owner's right to have him arrested for trespass ... and see how well that goes. Not to mention explaining that to the folks who have the power to take away his carry permit.
    Of course if somebody would be dumb enough to or, let's just say for argument's sake, didn't see the sign as they walked right in with their gun in plain sight, this would be the expected action. Conceal carry, you don't have that problem unless you do a piss-poor job concealing it because the only way they're gonna know you have it is when you'd have to use it and at that point, that's where the whole, "tried by 12 or carried out by 6" clause comes into play. I may pay a huge fine or go to jail but at least I'll be alive to stand trial and take my chances. Sure beats being placed in a wooden box, lowered in a hole in the ground.

    If I lived in an area that gave force of law to these idiots or if my permit would be in danger of being revoked then I'd have to reevaluate my priorities. I'm just thankful that Oklahoma doesn't give force of law to these bozos and as far as I know, I'll have to reread my SDA handbook but, to my knowledge, getting a trespassing charge for being in a gun free zone with a gun doesn't threaten loss of carry privileges.

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