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Thread: When local business post no weapons

  1. #61
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    Thank you seagullplayer. At this time I am not familiar with the carry permit laws of the states where a no guns sign is tied to actual gun laws. I suspect violating one of those signs would be classified as a misdemeanor and then that misdemeanor could be a disqualifier for issuing, or possibly a reason to revoke, a carry permit.

    But again I am curious. Could you please provide a cite or link to the actual law that specifies that being asked to leave is necessary before being charged with trespass in God's country? I'd like to know which states are more lenient than Michigan.

    Before getting to the information below let me say that I am NOT an attorney!

    As for Federal law I don't know for certain but I suspect that with the current concerns about terrorism if one were caught carrying where prohibited by Federal law losing one's permit would be the least of worries. And I suspect state laws likely have some kind of stipulation about a person not being eligible for a carry permit after having violated Federal law.

    I found the following using google fu...............

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/930

    18 U.S. Code 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
    -snip-

    Then I must go to Michigan state law concerning revoking a carry permit....

    Michigan Legislature - Section 28.428

    FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 372 of 1927


    28.428 Suspension, revocation, or reinstatement of license; notice; surrender of license; order or amended order; entry into law enforcement information network; effect; failure to receive notice.

    Sec. 8.

    (1) The county clerk in the county in which a license was issued to an individual to carry a concealed pistol shall suspend, revoke, or reinstate a license as required under this act if ordered by a court or if the county clerk is notified of a change in the licensee's eligibility to carry a concealed pistol under this act.

    (2) If a county clerk is notified by a law enforcement agency, prosecuting official, or court that an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol is charged with a felony or misdemeanor as defined in this act, the county clerk shall immediately suspend the individual's license until there is a final disposition of the charge for that offense.-snip-
    Bold added by me for emphasis....

    And there is this.....

    Michigan Legislature - Section 28.425b

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931


    750.115 Breaking and entering or entering without breaking; buildings, tents, boats, railroad cars; entering public buildings when expressly denied.

    Sec. 115.

    (1) Any person who breaks and enters or enters without breaking, any dwelling, house, tent, hotel, office, store, shop, warehouse, barn, granary, factory or other building, boat, ship, railroad car or structure used or kept for public or private use, or any private apartment therein, or any cottage, clubhouse, boat house, hunting or fishing lodge, garage or the out-buildings belonging thereto, any ice shanty with a value of $100.00 or more, or any other structure, whether occupied or unoccupied, without first obtaining permission to enter from the owner or occupant, agent, or person having immediate control thereof, is guilty of a misdemeanor.
    -snip-
    Bold added by me for emphasis....

    And being just charged with a misdemeanor, whether a misdemeanor violation of state or Federal law, would cause the county clerk in Michigan to suspend a person's carry permit.

    I strongly suggest folks search through ALL the laws in their state and any state they want to visit including trespass law (entering without permission due to a no guns sign), drunk driving law, even traffic law to see how laws that seem like they shouldn't matter or apply might result in suspension or revocation of their carry permit.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. - J. C. Watts

  2.   
  3. Yes it does vary by state as to whether its a legal crime to ignore business signs or not. Here in Pennsylvania it is not and only a rule. The most that can happen is they have to ask you to leave. Although it would be considered trespassing while carrying a firearm if you didnt immediately leave once requested. With all that said, it probably shouldnt be considered a gun free zone if Im there ;)

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhillySoldier View Post
    Yes it does vary by state as to whether its a legal crime to ignore business signs or not. Here in Pennsylvania it is not and only a rule. The most that can happen is they have to ask you to leave. Although it would be considered trespassing while carrying a firearm if you didnt immediately leave once requested. With all that said, it probably shouldnt be considered a gun free zone if Im there ;)
    Would you please cite and/or link to the Pennsylvania law that states one must first be requested to leave as notice? I am quite curious about the actual law itself.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. - J. C. Watts

  5. Bikenut Im a bit unclear by your statement which intself may be me being unclear in the first place.

    In PA it is not law that you need to obey business signs about gun control.

    If however a business asks you to leave and you refuse this can be considered trespassing which is a crime; committing any crime while carrying a firearm can then bump it up to a felony

    So Im not sure what law you would like me to cite? General laws on trespassing?

  6. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by PhillySoldier View Post
    Bikenut Im a bit unclear by your statement which intself may be me being unclear in the first place.

    In PA it is not law that you need to obey business signs about gun control.

    If however a business asks you to leave and you refuse this can be considered trespassing which is a crime; committing any crime while carrying a firearm can then bump it up to a felony

    So Im not sure what law you would like me to cite? General laws on trespassing?
    Where I live the state law is the same.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhillySoldier View Post
    Bikenut Im a bit unclear by your statement which intself may be me being unclear in the first place.

    In PA it is not law that you need to obey business signs about gun control.

    If however a business asks you to leave and you refuse this can be considered trespassing which is a crime; committing any crime while carrying a firearm can then bump it up to a felony

    So Im not sure what law you would like me to cite? General laws on trespassing?
    Originally posted by HKS:
    Where I live the state law is the same.
    I am curious if PA trespass law and the law in HKS's rocky mtns, as it is written, specifically states that a person must be asked to leave or if the law recognizes other forms of notification, such as a sign, as legal notification.

    The reason I am asking is I am curious if the law of a state someone lives in or visits says there are different forms of notification (such as being asked to leave or posting a no guns sign or having a list of rules... one of which is that guns are not allowed... posted somewhere) serve as actual legal notice. If so then maybe folks are unknowingly putting their carry permits in danger of being revoked (if trespass in that state is a misdemeanor and misdemeanors count as reasons for denying a permit) by relying on first being asked to leave.

    And what I would like for everyone to do is to not rely on just what they heard or have understood the law to be but to go to the website their state law makers have put up with the actual state laws and find out what the actual law(s) that could affect their carry permit really are. After all... it is your permit that might be at risk.

    A quick google search brought up this:

    Pennsylvania Criminal Trespassing Laws - PA Trespassing Penalties

    Pennsylvania Defiant Trespassing

    A defiant trespasser is defined under Pennsylvania law as someone who enters or remains on the property where notice against trespassing is given by:

    Communication from an occupant or owner
    A sign
    A fence or other enclosure
    An order to leave

    More serious than simple trespassing, this offense is considered a 1st degree misdemeanor and is punishable by up to 5 years in prison and fines.
    Bold added by me for emphasis....

    That is a website for Pennsylvania Defense Lawyers and isn't a quote of actual PA black letter law but if I lived in or wanted to visit PA I would want to make sure.....
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. - J. C. Watts


  8. #68
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    My most sincere thanks for posting those links!

    From your link above:

    Pennsylvania €œNo Gun€ Signs: Do They Have the Force of Law? - Pennsylvania Law Abiding Gun Owner Blog

    -snip-
    So should Penn LAGOs ignore “No Gun” signs? Certainly not. Should a Penn LAGO who is asked to leave because he or she has a gun and the owner of the business asks them to leave whip out his or her phone and video a confrontation with the owner and the police? We would strongly recommend against it as you will likely earn a citation. But will a LAGO who fails to notice one in an otherwise lawful location face prosecution? Though not impossible, it is unlikely.

    Other folks certainly can decide for themselves but "unlikely" to face prosecution isn't exactly confidence inspiring to me. Still... I appreciate the new information.

    Edited to add also from that same source:
    Defiant trespasser.–

    (1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:

    (i) actual communication to the actor;

    (ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
    Bold added by me for emphasis.........
    It would appear that a sign does have the force of trespass law behind it in PA.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. - J. C. Watts

  9. I can only say definitely that the signs themselves are not enforceable by the law. Other that that I can only point to examples from living in the state all my life that the only trouble that ensues is if someone refuses to leave after being told to do so. Ive been carrying over 20 yrs now

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhillySoldier View Post
    I can only say definitely that the signs themselves are not enforceable by the law. Other that that I can only point to examples from living in the state all my life that the only trouble that ensues is if someone refuses to leave after being told to do so. Ive been carrying over 20 yrs now
    I added more to my post above from the link you gave.

    Again.. I appreciate your posting the links.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. - J. C. Watts

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