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Thread: When local business post no weapons

  1. He should ask the Chamber for statistics on gun violence in gun free zones, vs where legal gun owners can concealed carry. No way as a business owner I would cave to the Chamber and open my business up to the broader chance of a mass shooting.

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  3. Quote Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
    If the sign has the power of law where you are, this is a bad idea. Anyone who happens to see and report you will cause you to lose your carry rights and spend some time in jail.
    Maybe in Illinois, but not in Ohio. You do not lose your license. You do not go to jail. Ohio is slowly moving away from gun control, and it's only a matter of time before signage loses force-of-law.

  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishguy824 View Post
    I used to very much be "screw it, I'm carrying anyhow." But I've changed my mind on it.

    First, I unarm and go in and ask for who's in charge. I then tell that person I'd like to discuss their no gun/weapons sign on the door. I explain to them that all the sign truly does is advertise to criminals that nobody inside has a weapon to defend themselves with. Sometimes I change the mind of the owner/manager, sometimes I don't.

    If I can't convince them to take the sign down, I do my best to avoid the establishment (not always a possibility) and if I do have to go inside, I disarm. However, I do let it be known to management that I will file a hefty lawsuit if something happens and myself or someone I'm with gets hurt because your policy forced me to be unable to adequately defend myself.

    There's one restaurant I go to where they have the sign up and I do carry. The sign is up because the city's chamber of commerce gave signs to every business in the city asking them to post them on all entrances to their business and he did, mostly because when it wasn't up the next time someone from the chamber came in they went on a rant about it. He said as long as a concealed carrier keeps it concealed unless a need to draw it happens, he doesn't have a problem with it.
    I applaud your decision and your willingness to respect the property rights of others while having the courage to personally step up and do something positive about possibly changing the minds of those property owners who have no guns rules/policies.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. - J. C. Watts

  5. #84
    As I've said before, in most states a policy of no guns in a store or business like a mall is just that, a policy. It is not a law. The most the can do, if caught carrying (and concealed means concealed) is to ask you to leave. But they should know if you leave, so does you money and credit card, and possibly the others that are with you. It puts a black mark against the business. Caution though, If asked to leave, ..leave and don't argue. If you start an argument about leaving, they have the right to call the cops and have you arrested for trespassing, fined or jailed, depending on the state or locale.
    So be smart.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by SR9 View Post
    As I've said before, in most states a policy of no guns in a store or business like a mall is just that, a policy. It is not a law. The most the can do, if caught carrying (and concealed means concealed) is to ask you to leave. But they should know if you leave, so does you money and credit card, and possibly the others that are with you. It puts a black mark against the business. Caution though, If asked to leave, ..leave and don't argue. If you start an argument about leaving, they have the right to call the cops and have you arrested for trespassing, fined or jailed, depending on the state or locale.
    So be smart.
    Yeah..."no-blacks = no $$" cards did not win the Civil Rights Act, though.

    We crossed this line with the whole gay wedding cake thing, and think what you want about all that nonsense but it happened and is now the standard. You shouldn't be asked to leave, and you shouldn't have to leave if asked over it. Buisnises shouldn't just lose your money, they didn't want your money in the first place so it's no real loss; they should lose their whole buisness.

    Sure it's best to just go somewhere else when you can, but 99% of the time you can't, so until we correct the law to reflect this, I say do whatever you have to do to remain armed inside a posted buisness.

    In Ohio that means I may get fined $400, so I have $400 set asside just to pay the fine. I encounter these signs very rarly but even if fined over it I'd just set asside another $400 and keep on carrying past them.

  7. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackBook View Post
    ...Sure it's best to just go somewhere else when you can, but 99% of the time you can't, so until we correct the law to reflect this, I say do whatever you have to do to remain armed inside a posted buisness.
    Well, there's a stat that you just pulled out of your backside. It's more like 100% of the time you can go elsewhere, you just don't want to because it's inconvenient, or worse, because you hold your own rights above those of the property/business owner's. You can hold that position if you like, but don't just make up a phony stat to justify your disregard for others' rights. Your rights end at the threshold to my property or business, the other side of which is where my rights reign supreme.

    Persuasion is preferable to coercion in just about all things. As a former business owner who would've never given a single thought to posting the kinds of signs being discussed here, I would still oppose with all my might any legislative or judicial prohibition on property/business owners maintaining their rights to grant or deny admission for any reason they see fit, including race. Peoples' hurt feelings don't trump other peoples' property rights. Anyone inclined to exclude wide swaths of society from their businesses won't stay in business long, so even if law didn't mandate admission for gays or blacks, the incidence of seeing such signs would be exceedingly rare if you were in a locale where any significant percentage of the prohibited people lived. The federal government should have no part in these micro-societal decisions. That's according to the Tenth Amendment, not just some philosophical ramblings on my part. Living in a "free" country should afford The People the right to be open and welcoming in their interactions with others, or to be closed-minded jerks. History proves rather succinctly that potential customers of businesses gravitate towards the former, and withhold their patronage from the latter types of business owners. Such businesses would be replaced by the former types in short order if "freedom" was any part of starting a business in this country. You said yourself that no-gun signs are rare in Ohio, so stick that 99% phony stat back from whence it came and reward the vast majority of businesses who don't act like closed-minded jerks with your dollars instead of speaking up for the premise of ignoring a property owner's rights to allow or disallow any-damn-one he chooses. Or else continue with your stance against property rights and be seen as no better than the jerk business people who would exclude blacks or gays from their businesses. In a free country, the only thing "law" has going for it is the force of government. Might definitely doesn't make right if one wishes to create or maintain a free country.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  8. #87

    When local business post no weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Well, there's a stat that you just pulled out of your backside. It's more like 100% of the time you can go elsewhere, you just don't want to because it's inconvenient, or worse, because you hold your own rights above those of the property/business owner's.
    Alright well, there's certainly a stat in which you yourself look like you just yanked outta your backside. Do you know what 100% of the time means? That means absolutely every. Single. Time.

    You sure sure about that? Really?

    I'm sorry but just because you appear to believe pretty heavily the same as one other specific person..... towards these goofball's particular right in general; inconvenience isn't included in your "100%", "no excuse" bullpoo. As I've stated before, I refuse to take what SHOULD be a ten-mile round-trip and turn it into a 60-mile round-trip just because of a stupid, idiotic sign. You don't like it, tough. As I also stated so many other times, what I or someone else who has the same views as me does is none of your concern. Look the other way. If you want to inconvenience yourself over this, fine, do it. Nobody cares. Nobody really shouldn't even consider it useful or even worthy of their time to even ridicule or form an opinion towards it.

    The same in return would be nice.

    I'm not going to get into it again explaining all the other times that disproves your "100%" claim nonsense.

    You can hold that position if you like, but don't just make up a phony stat....
    Neither should you.

    ...to justify your disregard for others' rights.
    Lol, it's not others' right((S)) we're talking about here, it's this one particular "questionable" right in a public place.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    As a former business owner who would've never given a single thought to posting the kinds of signs being discussed here, I would still oppose with all my might any legislative or judicial prohibition on property/business owners maintaining their rights to grant or deny admission for any reason they see fit, including race.
    How is your lawsuit to repeal the Civil Rights Act coming along?

    ***
    If you don't want guns on your property, great, post security and screen every invitee. No problem. It's up to you if the price of all that is worth your "property rights".

    I put my money where my mouth is. I have set aside the $400 I would have to pay should I be caught (not likely) and charged (not likely) and found guilty (I'd plea the charge down).

    Notice that the $400 is paid to the State, not the property owner. If I 'violate your rights' you never see a dime. That should tell you all you need to know about the real state of affairs.

  10. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackBook View Post
    If you don't want guns on your property, great, post security and screen every invitee. No problem. It's up to you if the price of all that is worth your "property rights".
    My sentiments exactly. I've stated numerous times that if they'd at least attempt to keep the "real" bad people from carrying, not just those who carry for defense, they'd probably be surprised at the number of defensive carriers who would be happy to disarm before entering. Since their sign can't promise my safety, I ignore them.

  11. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by SR9 View Post
    As I've said before, in most states a policy of no guns in a store or business like a mall is just that, a policy. It is not a law. The most the can do, if caught carrying (and concealed means concealed) is to ask you to leave. But they should know if you leave, so does you money and credit card, and possibly the others that are with you. It puts a black mark against the business. Caution though, If asked to leave, ..leave and don't argue. If you start an argument about leaving, they have the right to call the cops and have you arrested for trespassing, fined or jailed, depending on the state or locale.
    So be smart.
    That "the most they can do is ask you to leave" is not true for all states. In Michigan all that is necessary is for a person to be notified and the form of notification can be either by word of mouth or by a sign.

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/michigan.pdf

    Q: Is there a specific design for the no gun allowed sign? Does the law say where it has to be placed at a business, such as on the door or adjacent window leading into the business?

    A: There are no specifications for "No Guns" or "No Weapons" signs in Michigan law. Under the law, there are two ways for a CPL holder to know that guns are not allowed in a specific location. The first is the list of "Pistol Free Zones" (often colloquially referred to as violent criminal empowerment zones) that we must all memorize, which is part of the CPL statute (Pistol Free Areas).

    The second is when the owner or lessor of any real property communicates to us that our guns are not welcome there. That communication must be reasonable in order to be effective. By reasonable, I don't mean polite. I mean that there is an effective means of communicating to us that we are not welcome so long as we are carrying our guns. This can be done with a sign, verbally, or in some kind of printed material.

    For instance, if there is a reasonably - sized and located sign in a retail establishment indicating that guns or weapons are not allowed, that would constitute reasonable notice. If an employee of the same establishment actually tells you that you may not carry on the premises, that would constitute reasonable notice.

    If your employer has an employee handbook or some kind of printed guidelines, and includes a prohibition on guns and/or weapons, that would constitute reasonable notice. If you choose to ignore any such reasonable notice, then you become a trespasser rather than a business invitee. Trespass can be punished as a crime and/or in civil court, and could affect your CPL licensing status.


    Steve Dulan (Welcome to The Law Offices of Steven W. Dulan, PLC) is a member of the Board of Directors of the MCRGO and the MCRGO Foundation, and a member of the Board of Trustees of the MCRGO Foundation. He is an attorney in private practice in East Lansing and Adjunct Professor of firearms law at The Thomas M. Cooley Law School. as well as an Endowment Member of the NRA

    So.... at least in Michigan... it is very possible for a gun carrier to be arrested on the spot for trespass without anyone having asked them to leave.

    Please folks... check into the laws, ALL the laws not just the gun laws, that could affect your legal carrying status in your state and all the states you might visit.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. - J. C. Watts

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