When To Pull and or Shoot - Page 3
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Thread: When To Pull and or Shoot

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    Well, would you have had to under those circumstances?
    Don't know for sure. Was there a time when I could have got away from the bikers? That would have been the best outcome
    In an emergency individuals do not rise to the occasion, they fall to the level of their MASTERED training
    Barrett Tillman

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  3. Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    You clearly do not understand the law then. What threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury to justify the use of lethal force exists here? Good luck with that jury.
    I did not say anything about shooting the biker walking up. Showing the gun lets him know what he is getting into. Once the biker smashed the window, he was a serious threat. You keep attempting to escalate showing the gun as equal to shooting the gun.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Eidolon View Post
    Don't know for sure. Was there a time when I could have got away from the bikers? That would have been the best outcome
    I'm talking about the point where the car is cornered. The driver made every attempt to flee the bikers beforehand.

  5. Here is another scenario that I question what I would do if found in. Now, this scenario is not the same for every CC. I'm 5/10 195lbs. I'm also not a spring chicken, but I do feel the need to intervene in some capacity. Without a gun, I would just go after the guy. But, I question what might be the wise thing to do while armed. Just looking for input.


  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    I'm talking about the point where the car is cornered. The driver made every attempt to flee the bikers beforehand.
    Flip 'em the bird and die like a Viking


    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/kob...-win-scenario/
    In an emergency individuals do not rise to the occasion, they fall to the level of their MASTERED training
    Barrett Tillman

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    I did not say anything about shooting the biker walking up. Showing the gun lets him know what he is getting into. Once the biker smashed the window, he was a serious threat. You keep attempting to escalate showing the gun as equal to shooting the gun.
    I didn't say anything about shooting the biker walking up either. I just said that you clearly do not understand the law then. This post demonstrates it clearly.

    In the eye of the law, showing your weapon in a threatening manner and shooting it are both considered use of lethal force. Once you show someone your weapon in a threatening manner, you need to be able to justify it with the argument that you were in imminent danger of death or seriously bodily harm. That's why your concept of brandishing is considered stupid by all firearms trainers and by all criminal lawyers.

    Here is the corresponding criminal codes from my state, Tennessee, TCA 39-13-102 and 39-13-101. I put your stupidity in bold and underlined the show vs. shoot clause:

    39-13-102. Aggravated assault.

    (a) A person commits aggravated assault who:

    (1) Intentionally or knowingly commits an assault as defined in 39-13-101 and:

    (A) Causes serious bodily injury to another; or

    (B) Uses or displays a deadly weapon; or

    (2) Recklessly commits an assault as defined in 39-13-101(a)(1), and:

    (A) Causes serious bodily injury to another; or

    (B) Uses or displays a deadly weapon.
    39-13-101. Assault.

    (a) A person commits assault who:

    (1) Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to another;

    (2) Intentionally or knowingly causes another to reasonably fear imminent bodily injury; or

    (3) Intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another and a reasonable person would regard the contact as extremely offensive or provocative.
    Listen and learn:


  8. #27
    I saw the video on the TV news shortly after it actually occurred. I believe it happened in NJ or some such other non-carry no-issue (effectively) state.

    In the case of the video, the only smart thing that the driver of the car could have done is drive to a police station without stopping even if a biker got in his way.

    A car cannot run over a bike, so he would have had to swerve away from any biker right in front of him and even though knocking over the biker avoid running over him but still not stopping.

    And I suspect that even if he had a CFP and was armed with a firearm, he still would have had to drive to the police station in the same manner, simply because he was outnumbered.

    A pack of bikers like this is did-affectionately called "a rat pack" and for whatever reason the motorist angered this rat pack in a case of road rage.

    This is a case where your cell phone is going to be more valuable than your gun, simply because you would be severely outnumbered.

    So much for the video.

    When I saw this on TV I thought it was sickening.

    All the more reason to avoid a rat pack on motorcycles. The other thing on the road which is good to avoid is semi trucks.

  9. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    I'm talking about the point where the car is cornered. The driver made every attempt to flee the bikers beforehand.
    A car or truck or SUV cannot outrun a motorcycle. And it certainly cannot outrun a rat pack of them.

    The rat pack bikers are going to play chicken by getting in front of the car and braking.

    The car driver needs to clip the rear tire of the biker in a steep turn, knock him over, avoid running over his bike, and keep going to the nearest police station.

  10. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Eidolon View Post
    Doesn't exist. I think you may mean a justified defensive display. Basically if you would be otherwise justified in using deadly force you would be justified in threatening deadly force.



    Maybe, but even if he did there's no guarantee that it would have changed the outcome.

    Ya pays your money and ya takes your chances
    Regarding the question about the justified defensive display, I have my own rules about that.

    My first premise is that I really don't want to shoot anybody IF I have a choice in the matter.

    So as a confrontation develops, you always should try to de-escalate it IF POSSIBLE.

    The first de-escalation step is to STOP TALKING. Let the other person talk.

    When he/she is finished talking, as long as they are just talking, I would then apologize.

    It is a lot easier apologizing even when you don't mean it than it is to fill out the paperwork at the police station explaining why you shot somebody.

    In one of two hostile encounters that I have been in, apologizing calmed the other person down, who happened to be quite drunk.

    In the second of two hostile encounters that I have been in, the opponent rushed at me (3 different times).

    Bruce Lee teaches that you should always maintain your fighting interval, and so when someone rushes you it means you should withdraw backwards. Now a lot of would-be gunfighters don't like this answer, but that's what I did.

    Normally after the first rush I would not draw, although drawing would be justified.

    In this case with this second opponent, he figured out after his 3 failed rushes that (1) I was not easy to catch, (2) I was probably a trained fighter, and (3) I was probably holding an ace that he was not holding.

    I think if he had rushed me a 4th time then I would finally have drawn, and kept my pistol close at my side, pointed upwards towards the sky, in a two handed grip. But I did not need to. He gave up his aggression and walked away after his 3rd attempt to close the gap on me failed.

    In states where there is stand your ground, I still like to follow Bruce Lee's advice and retreat to preserve my interval. I think this is critical even if your plan is to draw and shoot. Keeping your interval is a very successful defense against a knife (if there is one) or a lucky swing (if the other guys can swing fast).

  11. Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    As I said, you clearly do not understand the law then.

    Once the window is broken, there is no barrier between you and the attacker. That's usually when the justification for using lethal force applies. By that time, showing the gun to the biker is the same as pointing it at him. If he complies, good if he doesn't then you may lawfully use deadly force.

    If the window is not broken and the biker is hammering at the car, you are not in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. Hence, displaying your gun is illegal and stupid.
    Are you one that believes there is no justification for pulling as a deterrent?

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