When To Pull and or Shoot - Page 5
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Thread: When To Pull and or Shoot

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    The point of this thread is to put yourself in his shoes, which is also considered to be carrying.
    There are some general rules you need to remember about a gunfight.

    If there are more guns against you than with you, then you are going to die.

    If you die, you lose.

    There are many cases where even if armed, you still need to flee, if you want to live.

    This rat pack of bikers was one of those times.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    The bikers clearly threatened the driver before he fled the first time. If I had just driven over a biker, I would expect they were chasing me to do harm. The biker getting off his bike clearly has a weapon in hand and does use it. The bikers were clearly the initiators and showing plenty of hostility at the point of the attack. How you don't see imminent threat is puzzling.

    I'm curious, at what point did the bikers become an imminent threat? Maybe after half his face was smashed? Under your thinking, the only right scenario is shooting the biker. Mine at least attempts to deesculate before entre of the car.
    Past threats do not justify the use of lethal force, only imminent threats do. Once you left the initial contact scene, it doesn't matter anymore who the initiator was. The law treats each event (injury or death you cause) separately anyway, even at the same scene. Shooting a biker at the scene that didn't pose a threat would be considered manslaughter. You still haven't shown me the imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. Keying you car doesn't count.

    Your supposed attempt to deescalate (check your spelling) will be seen by a jury as an attempt to escalate the situation. If the biker shows you his gun, do you count that as deescalation too? Good luck with that.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    Showing full intent to penetrate the car is different from actually penetrating the car. When someone shows full intent to penetrate the car, then you are not in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. Any criminal defense attorney will tell you that once you have been charged. Good luck with your approach.

    Watch the video I posted, specifically the part starting at 8:12. It specifically refers to people like you.
    I watched the video. While I agree with most of it, this guy makes it sound better that you shoot yourself if you pull your gun. I'm not some guy looking for an excuse to pull a gun. Clearly, by what happened in the video, you are only left with shooting the biker. IMO, coming at my window with a weapon(helmet) is an imminent threat. Cops pull guns on people all the time without imminent threat. Cops pull guns all the time without needing to fire. What do you think would happen to a cop if he was in the same scenario and pulled his gun when the biker was coming at his window with a weapon?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by HKS View Post
    There are some general rules you need to remember about a gunfight.

    If there are more guns against you than with you, then you are going to die.

    If you die, you lose.

    There are many cases where even if armed, you still need to flee, if you want to live.

    This rat pack of bikers was one of those times.
    Have you recognized that the car had fled all it could and was cornered? Please catch up.

  6. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    Have you recognized that the car had fled all it could and was cornered? Please catch up.
    That was the driver's mistake.

    He had to keep fleeing.

    I would have been side swiping bikers left and right. He did not.

    You need to take out the bikers without running over them.

    And you need to avoid traffic jams.

    He did neither.

  7. #46
    If ever there was a good time to have a riot shotgun or an assault carbine with you in the car with high cap mags, this incident was it.

    I have travelled the highways with my assault carbine and several high cap mags with me. Every state has different rules for these.

  8. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    I watched the video. While I agree with most of it, this guy makes it sound better that you shoot yourself if you pull your gun. I'm not some guy looking for an excuse to pull a gun. Clearly, by what happened in the video, you are only left with shooting the biker. IMO, coming at my window with a weapon(helmet) is an imminent threat. Cops pull guns on people all the time without imminent threat. Cops pull guns all the time without needing to fire. What do you think would happen to a cop if he was in the same scenario and pulled his gun when the biker was coming at his window with a weapon?
    Shooting yourself would only make sense if you only had 1 bullet left, and you were still outgunned and outnumbered, and you knew they were going to torture you to death. It can happen and does. But this was not one of those times.

    In the vid, the driver of the car essentially gave himself up as a sacrifice for the sake of his passengers.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by HKS View Post
    Shooting yourself would only make sense if you only had 1 bullet left, and you were still outgunned and outnumbered, and you knew they were going to torture you to death. It can happen and does. But this was not one of those times.

    In the vid, the driver of the car essentially gave himself up as a sacrifice for the sake of his passengers.
    I haven't been here long enough to know if you are serious or just trolling me. Are you seriously suggesting that an armed motorist just allow himself to be seriously beat if he had a gun to defend himself?

  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    I watched the video. While I agree with most of it, this guy makes it sound better that you shoot yourself if you pull your gun. I'm not some guy looking for an excuse to pull a gun. Clearly, by what happened in the video, you are only left with shooting the biker. IMO, coming at my window with a weapon(helmet) is an imminent threat. Cops pull guns on people all the time without imminent threat. Cops pull guns all the time without needing to fire. What do you think would happen to a cop if he was in the same scenario and pulled his gun when the biker was coming at his window with a weapon?
    Alexian Lien wasn't armed, he and his family survived and the attackers were caught, charged, tried and convicted. Lien sustained lacerations to his face and sides, requiring stitches at a local hospital. So, shooting was clearly not the only option. Your argument has thus been proven factually wrong.

    We have already established that you do not understand the law, there is no need to add more posts to prove that. As long there is a barrier between you and the attacker and the attacker doesn't have a weapon that can breach the barrier and injure you severely or kill you at the same time, that attacker is not a imminent threat justifying deadly force.

    No lawyer will ever raise your cop argument in court, by the way, as it is inadmissible. Did a cop pull a gun on you when he stopped you for a traffic violation? You just made yourself a laughing stock in this forum.

    A cop has the local PD and the police union behind him, making sure that he can get away with murder. We have documented numerous cases in this forum. Do you have your own PD and union?

    PS: I completely failed to mention that one of the bikers was a cop. LOL. This is hilarious!


  11. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    I haven't been here long enough to know if you are serious or just trolling me. Are you seriously suggesting that an armed motorist just allow himself to be seriously beat if he had a gun to defend himself?
    That's what he finally decided to do. It was for the sake of his family in the car.

    You are not getting the fact that he was outnumbered and these bikers were most likely also armed as well.

    One of them would have shot him from the side.

    Rambo movies are great but in real life it does not work like that.

    I would have been sideswiping bikers to get them out of my way and kept driving to a police station, going down side streets to avoid traffic jams.

    There are times when a gun won't help you unless it is a long gun against handguns, which he also did not have.

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