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Thread: When To Pull and or Shoot

  1. #61
    The video of the biker incident is only one particular case.

    There may be other times when it is appropriate to draw and come to a carry position (while NOT pointing the muzzle at the opponent) rather than shooting immediately.

    The biker incident clouds the issue.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    In the end, you and I are going to disagree on whether the driver had "reasonable" reason to believe he was under imminate threat. I believe he was.

    I will take away from your posts to do some deeper research on presenting a gun as a deterrent.
    May be, instead of living in Lethal Weapon 1-4 movie fantasies and relying in Internet forums, you should take some training classes and read or watch some training material?

    Tactical Response | FIGHTING PISTOL
    Tactical Response | FIGHTING PISTOL DVD

    Thunder Ranch | Pistol Courses
    Thunder Ranch Videos

    HITS-7: VEHICLE GUNFIGHTING FUNDAMENTALS
    VEHICLE GUNFIGHTING BOOK - BY GABRIEL SUAREZ

    Valor Ridge | Pistol Craft I

    Gunsite Academy | Pistol Classes

    Spartan Training Concepts | American Defensive Pistol Class

    There are reputable firearms training schools around the country. It is your choice to ignore such opportunities and make life and death decisions based on guess work and fantasies.


  4. Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    May be, instead of living in Lethal Weapon 1-4 movie fantasies and relying in Internet forums, you should take some training classes and read or watch some training material?

    Tactical Response | FIGHTING PISTOL
    Tactical Response | FIGHTING PISTOL DVD

    Thunder Ranch | Pistol Courses
    Thunder Ranch Videos

    HITS-7: VEHICLE GUNFIGHTING FUNDAMENTALS
    VEHICLE GUNFIGHTING BOOK - BY GABRIEL SUAREZ

    Valor Ridge | Pistol Craft I

    Gunsite Academy | Pistol Classes

    Spartan Training Concepts | American Defensive Pistol Class

    There are reputable firearms training schools around the country. It is your choice to ignore such opportunities and make life and death decisions based on guess work and fantasies.

    Pissoff bofh, the only one here with illusions is you. My guess is that most current permit holders would be illegal to carry under your expectations.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by HKS View Post
    The video of the biker incident is only one particular case.

    There may be other times when it is appropriate to draw and come to a carry position (while NOT pointing the muzzle at the opponent) rather than shooting immediately.

    The biker incident clouds the issue.
    This is why I'd like to see other scenarios presented. These are real issues that some may encounter. IMO, many may not be prepared due to questioning themselves. I would like to remove as many questions as possible, at least for myself. Here is a situation I read in a forum:

    Brandished to de-escalate road rage. Did not enjoy it.
    u/scoobydoobydoodle2y
    Driving home after a pleasant lunch, this overly macho bro apparently didn't like the way I merged into traffic. He started tailgating very closely and yelling and throwing up inappropriate gestures. Pulled up beside me for a bit to scream as we drove.

    I was getting tired of it after about a mile and decided to turn slowly into a random residential neighborhood that I knew had several turns where I could make it look like I was just driving to my house. He turned into the neighborhood with me. I continued and turned again. He turned with me. All the while, he was staying close on my tail and waving hand signs of some kind.

    Finally, I turned again and he went straight. I thought it was over so I continued to drive out of the neighborhood to get back on the road to go home. As I came to the next intersection in the neighborhood, he came roaring up to the crossing and swerved right in front of me, stopping just a couple feet from my bumper. My only escape was to reverse.

    At that moment, he brandished what looked to be a very very large screw driver and started pointing at me with it through his window and yelling what looked to be "I'm gonna ******* you up!" At that point, he opened his door and stepped half way out, which wasn't far from my car. Only ten feet or so. Since I already had my firearm in my lap as a precaution when he started following me through the neighborhood, I picked it up and showed it to him through the windshield. I did not point it at him. I simply displayed that I had a gun.

    He yelled a little more while I kept my gun visible in my hand resting on the wheel. Then he got back in his car, flipped me the bird, and sped off like a wannabe badass.

    I was shaking. I don't carry because I love the idea of hurting someone. I carry so I can defend and protect myself. I've never been in a serious physical fight in my life. I'm the kind of guy that can talk my way out of most hairy situations. I'm reasonable. But today, I felt like the only thing that kept that man from trying to hurt me was the fact that I was well armed and he would get the raw end of the deal.

    Now all I'm thinking is, what if he'd had a gun, too?

    Edit: Thanks for all the advice! I definitely should have called the police. I honestly didn't even think about it until after I was home and the adrenaline had worn off. I do think brandishing at the moment I did was ok. I couldn't reverse due to cars coming up behind me and I don't feel ok brandishing after the guy is already into active attack mode. At that point, it's too late to de-escalate the situation IMO.

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    Pissoff bofh, the only one here with illusions is you. My guess is that most current permit holders would be illegal to carry under your expectations.
    Watch your language or you will get banned from this forum, like so many others did.

    I offered you sound advise. It is your choice to take it or to ignore it. In contrast to you, I have actually taken such training classes, which is why I can speak from experience. If you actually read my post, you would have seen the links to the easy-to-order DVDs and book that provide much better information than any Internet forum.

    You also clearly have no clue about my political views. I am completely opposed to carry permits and government-mandated training requirements. In contrast to HKS, I actually know what the 2nd Amendment means. Also, none of my posts even talked about what you accuse me of, so knock it off.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    Watch your language or you will get banned from this forum, like so many others did.

    I offered you sound advise. It is your choice to take it or to ignore it. In contrast to you, I have actually taken such training classes, which is why I can speak from experience. If you actually read my post, you would have seen the links to the easy-to-order DVDs and book that provide much better information than any Internet forum.

    You also clearly have no clue about my political views. I am completely opposed to carry permits and government-mandated training requirements. In contrast to HKS, I actually know what the 2nd Amendment means. Also, none of my posts even talked about what you accuse me of, so knock it off.
    Your advice is appreciated, your god like attitude and claiming I'm a fantasy nut is not.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    Your advice is appreciated, your god like attitude and claiming I'm a fantasy nut is not.
    I am just opinionated, like you are. I speak from experience. Many people come to Internet forums to just confirm their views. When these views are then thrown off by facts and experience, that's when things get off the rails and become emotional.

    My view of you is entirely based on your replies. I told you numerous times what the law says. I even quoted you the law. However, you still try to find ways to justify your view that pulling your gun out for de-escalation is a good idea. What should I think of a person who comes to an Internet forum just to seek confirmation that his wrong views of the law and self defense are correct?

    As I said before, there is not a single firearms instructor that will give you that confirmation. What is taught in firearms classes is exactly what I told you. These classes are based on what the law says and what the best options for specific situations are.

    We haven't even discussed some of the issues that you should know in the first place. Drawing your handgun safely inside a vehicle, without lasering you or anyone else and without bumping into the center console or steering wheel, isn't easy. Firing a handgun inside a vehicle is extremely loud. You will have hearing damage afterwards. Anyone sitting in the car will have hearing damage afterwards.

    Firing though a windshield is completely different than firing though a side window. Side windows shatter, while a windshield does not. The angle of the windshield will deflect a bullet. Firing through a car door can be done as self defense rounds are barrier blind, but has its risks. What about defensive driving to avoid a close physical confrontation in the first place?

    What if you vehicle is disabled, as it was at the end of the video in the OP? Do you stay inside or try to escape on foot? What parts of the car provide cover (stop bullets) and what provide only concealment (hide you)? A bullet shot at the hood of the car by an attacker gets deflected upwards. Also, never lay on the ground on pavement, as nearby misses fragment or deflect and likely hit you.

    Do you see now that harping on the single argument of showing your gun to de-escalate is the least of your problems? No Internet forum discussion about "what ifs" can teach you what you should know. Get some training. Watch training videos by professional firearms instructors. I will leave you with this video of an actual self defensive gun use in a vehicle with no shots fired and a lot of lessons learned (this isn't me, by the way):


  9. #68
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    Moer food for though:


  10. Another experience I had once was at a theater. As with most theaters it was posted. I carried anyway. I was in a line to see a movie and when getting near the entrance, I saw that they were wanding and checking purses. I figured this would lead to some form of confrontation, but I knew the law was on my side to just leave if asked. Strangely, they missed my gun with the wand that was IWB on my right side. He just didn't go high enough.

    I'm in OK where signs carry no legal weight. I also wonder just how aware businesses are of their limits when they find a customer armed.

    Let's assume they found me armed, but instead of asking me to leave, they attempted to confiscate your gun. What would you do?

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    Another experience I had once was at a theater. As with most theaters it was posted. I carried anyway. I was in a line to see a movie and when getting near the entrance, I saw that they were wanding and checking purses. I figured this would lead to some form of confrontation, but I knew the law was on my side to just leave if asked. Strangely, they missed my gun with the wand that was IWB on my right side. He just didn't go high enough.

    I'm in OK where signs carry no legal weight. I also wonder just how aware businesses are of their limits when they find a customer armed.

    Let's assume they found me armed, but instead of asking me to leave, they attempted to confiscate your gun. What would you do?
    OK, let's continue with your troll posts. I am in the mood. LOL.

    Know your state law. If your state law already says that signs have the force of law, then you already broke the law by entering a posted movie theater with a firearm. You will be lucky to be asked to leave when discovered. If you are unlucky, you will get arrested and the rest goes from there.

    If your state law already says that signs do not have the force of law, then you will be asked to leave. If you don't leave, you commit criminal trespassing, get arrested, and the rest goes from there. If you do leave, then you will be fine.

    As for attempting to confiscating your gun. Know the law, which you obviously don't. A citizen can not simply take property from you or arrest you without cause. No one, other than law enforcement, is going to try to confiscate your firearm, unless you committed an actual crime. A police officer may temporarily disarm you for "officer safety", but has to return the firearm to you.

    If something doesn't go according to the law, don't act stupidly. Call for a law enforcement officer to sort things out at the scene and take things to court to sort things out afterwards.

    If someone asks you for your firearm at the security check you described, you just tell them that you would rather leave. If they don't let you leave, they already committed a crime. At that point, you tell them to call law enforcement or you will do it. The rest goes from there. If they try to force you to give up your gun, you have a right to self defense, but that's a movie fantasy. It doesn't happen in reality.

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