Spoke to a Judge... What is he talking about? - Page 4
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Thread: Spoke to a Judge... What is he talking about?

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Green Valley (Henderson) NV
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    There is an urban legend that a jury will convict a self-defense shooter based upon the "lethality" of the ammo used and whether or not that ammo was handloaded. It's total B.S. and there is not one case history that anyone has found where the type of ammo has been considered, as long as there is no specific prohibition to the type of ammo used, such as armor piercing, or in NJ - hollowpoints.
    Actually there is. There's Harold Fish for the use of 10mm rounds which were a factor. If you look at the SAAMI specs, full power 10mm is essentially .40 S&W +P as it has about 10% more PSI than standard pressure .40 S&W.

    There's also Daniel Bias whose use of handloaded ammunition in his spouse's revolver was a contributing factor in his conviction for manslaughter. The rounds were light loads.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  3. #32

  4. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Owyhee County, ID
    Your Municipal Judge is an idiot!!! Of course you carry cocked and locked if carrying a single action auto. If you are carry a revolver or a DA auto you can carry it to capacity.

    If you can legally pack then I know of no law regulatng the type of ammo unless your jurisdiction does, then it's your responsibility to know the law at hand, or if the ammo is proscribed by law in and of itself.

    For better or worse the entire reason for carrying is you might actually have to defend yourself and that might mean shooting somebody. The rules are the same for a civilian as a LEO, if you have the right to shoot somebody, it is implicit that you have the right to kill them. Otherwise why have you drawn your weapon?


  5. #34
    Find out what round your local police department carries and carry that. It will most likely be Gold Dot or Hydra Shoks. I personally stay away from any kind of +P rounds. "You were carrying +P ammo. Your intent was to clearly kill my clients gang banging son." My Kimber Ultra Carry II has a problem feeding Gold Dots because they are a little bit shorter than most other rounds. Remington Premiums work fine though. So thats what i am stuck with.

  6. So if I killed a bad guy with my BFR chambered in 45/70 I'd get 'Fished'? Dave

  7. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by farglov View Post
    The Judge you spoke with is an idiot! My brother-in-law is a chief DA in Philly. (Where JHP's are illegal, I found this out on a visit form Florida.) He didn't have a problem with the JHP's, he just told me not shoot anyone with them. He thinks it's great that there are concealed carry laws. In some cases he feel it makes his job at prosicuting them easier because they can't testify. He told me it doesn't matter how many rounds the gun can hold, just how many rounds were fired and where did they go. The next time I visited Philly I changed my ammo to EFMJ, there not JHP's

    What do the police carry in Philly? If they carry JHP, then so would I.

    Some zealot anti-2A prosecutors like to imply malice if a SD shooting involves hollow points. Carry what your local/ state PD carry. If you are charged, call on a trooper to tell the jury what they carry and why. Then ask the jury if the police are malicious.

    - my $.02
    Legalize Freedom!

    building an AR on my blog

  8. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Sunny South Florida
    Reading the Fish case, there is a whole lot more than the ammo used here.

    YES, one juror did not she had concerns about the whole "hollow point" thing and agreed that every proscecutor is going to make every hollow point into a Black Talon Cop Killer bullet in the jury's mind, but that same proscecutor will make a FMJ that goes through a wall and kills a bystander armor peircing in a jury's mind also so you damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    What convicted Fish however (IMHO), was the medical examiners testimony that the wounds were defensive and that the victim was standing still when shot. That would say that the charge and therefore the threat had stopped and that Fish had no reason to fire. If true, then Fish was wrong!

    If you are carrying and an unarmed person is charging you and threatening to kill you, you MAY have valid reason to fear for your life and to use lethal force. But if that same person, even if still threatening to kill you is standing still, and as you raise your firearm puts his arms up as if to defend his body from the impending bullet, and you pull the trigger anyway, THAT is second degree murder as NO VAILD THREAT EXISTS!

    THAT appears to be the question the jury was addressing in Fish, coupled with the fact that the ME also stated the wounds were to the side of the body (hardly where a charging person would be hit).

    Also, the time delay and apparent lie of the time of the shooting and of the time delay seem to figure prominently in this case.

    The bullet information seems more as supportive to the fact that Fish apparently was known to brandish his gun at other times publicly, attempting to indicate that he was a person looking for a reason to shoot someone and that carrying a "larger than normal" weapon was an extension of that manifestation.

    However, from the evdience, I think this same jury would have convicted him had he used a .22, and that using this case as an indicator of jury consideration of caliber as the deciding factor is simply total bull.

  9. I must be missing something, It seems to me that the fmj's would be illegal because they are in and out putting others in danger, where as hp's may still go thru but loose alot in the process taking away some risk to bystanders. I always carry locked and loaded with gold dot JHP. that judge should be removed from the bench.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by fibertech View Post
    I must be missing something, It seems to me that the fmj's would be illegal because they are in and out putting others in danger, where as hp's may still go thru but loose alot in the process taking away some risk to bystanders. I always carry locked and loaded with gold dot JHP. that judge should be removed from the bench.
    Please don't say that too loud in New Jersey.

  11. #40
    This is the kind of crap that the anit-gunners love to hear....."well....a judge said.....".....Unless the ammo is prohibited by state law, carry all ya want. And as far as handloads are concerned....I may be in the minority, but I USUALLY load "underpower" as I mostly load for target shooting ammo.
    "Never advance cheerfully on your late opponent without reloading. You may have used your last round, and he may not be properly dead and still spiteful." Major Hugh Pollard

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