Can Canadians get a US CCW Permit? - Page 3
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Thread: Can Canadians get a US CCW Permit?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    That statement is absolutely incorrect. Please provide the cite to law to support it.
    The criteria for buying from a FFL is the same criteria to legally possess firearms. I draw your attention to the Gun Control Act of 1968 or 18 USC 922.

    You know, those yes/no questions on the 4473 and many State CCW applications. You do know what a BATFE 4473 is don't you?

    It's pretty obvious to me that you never were a member of the Navy's JAG Corps. Did you also take your CCW class from one of those rubber stampers that brought about HB204 in the Utah legislature?
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

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  3. Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    The criteria for buying from a FFL is the same criteria to legally possess firearms. I draw your attention to the Gun Control Act of 1968 or 18 USC 922.

    You know, those yes/no questions on the 4473 and many State CCW applications. You do know what a BATFE 4473 is don't you?

    It's pretty obvious to me that you never were a member of the Navy's JAG Corps. Did you also take your CCW class from one of those rubber stampers that brought about HB204 in the Utah legislature?
    Well, let me present to you at least one instance where your statements are incorrect. A military spouse lives in Washington state with her husband who has permanent orders to Washington State. She is not required by Washington State, according to Washington Administrative Code, to obtain a Washington State Driver's license. Her "home state" is Wyoming and she has a Wyoming driver's license.

    So, according to 27 CFR 478.11, she is not a resident of Wyoming, because she is not present in Wyoming with an intent to make a home there.

    State of residence. The State in which
    an individual resides. An individual resides
    in a State if he or she is present in a State
    with the intention of making a home in that
    State. If an individual is on active duty as a
    member of the Armed Forces, the individual's
    State of residence is the State in
    which his or her permanent duty station is
    located.
    According to 27 CFR 478.11, she does not have appropriate identification to purchase a firearm from an FFL, as a Washington resident because she has a Wyoming driver's license.
    Identification document. A document
    containing the name, residence address,
    date of birth, and photograph of the holder
    and which was made or issued by or under
    the authority of the United States
    Government, a State, political subdivision
    of a State, a foreign government, political
    subdivision of a foreign government, an
    international governmental or an international
    quasi-governmental organization
    which, when completed with information
    concerning a particular individual, is of a
    type intended or commonly accepted for
    the purpose of identification of individuals.
    So, she cannot claim Wyoming on the 4473 as state of residence, because she is not a resident of Wyoming. She cannot provide suitable ID as a Washington resident to support an answer of Washington as state of residency on the 4473. So, by CFR's she is prohibited from purchasing any firearm at an FFL. Yet, she is perfectly legal to obtain a Washington State CPL (and has) and is perfectly legal to purchase firearms in private sales because there are no ID requirements specified for private sales.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Well, let me present to you at least one instance where your statements are incorrect. A military spouse lives in Washington state with her husband who has permanent orders to Washington State. She is not required by Washington State, according to Washington Administrative Code, to obtain a Washington State Driver's license. Her "home state" is Wyoming and she has a Wyoming driver's license.

    So, according to 27 CFR 478.11, she is not a resident of Wyoming, because she is not present in Wyoming with an intent to make a home there.

    ...

    According to 27 CFR 478.11, she does not have appropriate identification to purchase a firearm from an FFL, as a Washington resident because she has a Wyoming driver's license.

    ...

    So, she cannot claim Wyoming on the 4473 as state of residence, because she is not a resident of Wyoming. She cannot provide suitable ID as a Washington resident to support an answer of Washington as state of residency on the 4473. So, by CFR's she is prohibited from purchasing any firearm at an FFL. Yet, she is perfectly legal to obtain a Washington State CPL (and has) and is perfectly legal to purchase firearms in private sales because there are no ID requirements specified for private sales.
    This case falls under the multiple residency exemption. She can legally buy firearms in WA barring any State laws prohibiting it and in WY. Her military ID, WY DL and her spouse's orders would qualify her to purchase from a WA FFL. Military spouses have the same rights as their active duty spouse under GCA68 with respect to residency. Also WA issues non-resident CPLs providing she is not a prohibited person under State law which includes the GCA68.

    If I had a deed to property in WA State and spent a portion of the year residing there, I could legally buy firearms from a WA FFL as well barring any State law issues, handguns included not that I'd want to live there since they have a State prohibition for NFA items. About the only good thing about WA State is there's no State income tax.

    The point is you must not be a prohibited person under GCA68 to get a CCW as being a prohibited person under GCA68 is a disqualifying condition in virtually all States. If you are prohibited to possess or purchase by federal law, don't expect to get any CCW.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  5. Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    This case falls under the multiple residency exemption. She can legally buy firearms in WA barring any State laws prohibiting it and in WY. Her military ID, WY DL and her spouse's orders would qualify her to purchase from a WA FFL.
    Respectfully, it is quite obvious since you have not quoted one law that you are discussing things from opinion rather than fact. Military orders and military ID apply to the active duty service member ONLY and not to spouses. The Federal regulation referenced is, again, 27 CFR 478.11:

    State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located.
    Notice, "member", not spouse or dependent.

    ATF's guides to FFL's in the August 2004 FFL Newsletter states this:
    Question 2. Further, in situations where the
    transferee is an active duty military member
    acquiring a firearm where his or her duty station is
    located, but he or she has a driver’s license from
    another State, you should list the transferee’s
    military identification card and official orders
    showing where his or her permanent duty station is
    located in response to Question 18a.
    Again, notice this only applies to the "member", not spouse or dependents.

    Yes, you are correct that WA state issues CPL's to non-residents.

    Yes you are correct that she could purchase LONG GUNS ONLY from a WA FFL, with a Wyoming driver's license, only IF she could truthfully state that Wyoming was her state of residence, which it is not, because she is not present in Wyoming for any part of the year with the intent of making Wyoming a home. She cannot purchase any firearm from a WA FFL claiming Washington as a state of residence and presenting a Wyoming Driver's License, regardless of her Dependent ID Card and MY orders, because she is NOT an active duty military member.

    However, by definition, she is a Washington resident and may purchase both handguns and long guns from other WA state residents.

    You have to be able to legally purchase firearms in the US from a FFL before you can consider getting a CCW from any State in the US. Being able to import your firearms from your country is not enough, you have to be able to legally buy here from a FFL.
    In regards to the above statement, Federal law requires residency in a state for 90 consecutive days for an alien to be considered legally a resident of that state for the purpose of purchasing firearms from an FFL. However, states that issue CCWs to non state residents, and to persons only legally in the United States but not citizens, would therefore issue a CCW to a legal alien who would be prohibited from purchasing a firearm from an FFL.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Respectfully, it is quite obvious since you have not quoted one law that you are discussing things from opinion rather than fact.
    BATFE firearms FAQ B12 cites the CFR.
    Military orders and military ID apply to the active duty service member ONLY and not to spouses. The Federal regulation referenced is, again, 27 CFR 478.11:

    Notice, "member", not spouse or dependent.

    ATF's guides to FFL's in the August 2004 FFL Newsletter states this:

    Again, notice this only applies to the "member", not spouse or dependents.

    Yes, you are correct that WA state issues CPL's to non-residents.

    Yes you are correct that she could purchase LONG GUNS ONLY from a WA FFL, with a Wyoming driver's license, only IF she could truthfully state that Wyoming was her state of residence, which it is not, because she is not present in Wyoming for any part of the year with the intent of making Wyoming a home. She cannot purchase any firearm from a WA FFL claiming Washington as a state of residence and presenting a Wyoming Driver's License, regardless of her Dependent ID Card and MY orders, because she is NOT an active duty military member.
    That is used by the FFL to determine residency status, that's why she has the same rights as you to purchase from a FFL. However, WA has an additional State law pertaining to transfers to new residents.
    However, by definition, she is a Washington resident and may purchase both handguns and long guns from other WA state residents.

    In regards to the above statement, Federal law requires residency in a state for 90 consecutive days for an alien to be considered legally a resident of that state for the purpose of purchasing firearms from an FFL. However, states that issue CCWs to non state residents, and to persons only legally in the United States but not citizens, would therefore issue a CCW to a legal alien who would be prohibited from purchasing a firearm from an FFL.
    I draw your attention to the relevant sections of 27 CFR 478.11.


    Alien. Any person not a citizen or national of the United States.

    ...

    State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

    Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

    Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
    The military ID, copy of her spouse's orders and WY DL should suffice as proof for the FFL that she is indeed residing in WA State during the term of her spouse being stationed in WA. To qualify for the multiple State of residency exemption you must provide documentation to the FFL that you do indeed reside in the State you're in if your DL or ID is not from the State where the transfer is taking place providing there is no State law prohibiting transfers to out of State residents. This is the same documentation you'd provide to the FFL if you were buying the firearm yourself. Example 2 under 27 CFR 478.11 is the relevant example in your case. Yes, the examples are codified within the CFR. With respect to purchasing firearms from a FFL, you and your spouse is both a residents of WA and WY.

    The federal 90 day period applies to aliens; persons who are not US citizens or nationals. It does not apply to US citizens. I have included the federal statutory definition of alien under 27 CFR 478.11.

    What you're probably confused about is RCW 9.41.090 which is the waiting period for new and non-residents of WA State. That's different from federal law. That's what's probably keeping you and your spouse from buying handguns in WA State, not federal law. There is no active duty military exemption for RCW 9.41.090.

    The only thing keeping me from sending you a bill for this is that I'm not a member of any State bar. I do know from my friends in the shark...uh legal, profession that you'd be buying me at least a stripped AR-15 lower about now for this debate. I could use another Jolly Roger stripped lower from Spike's Tactical for another AR-15 build.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  7. Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    The only thing keeping me from sending you a bill for this is that I'm not a member of any State bar. I do know from my friends in the shark...uh legal, profession that you'd be buying me at least a stripped AR-15 lower about now for this debate. I could use another Jolly Roger stripped lower from Spike's Tactical for another AR-15 build.
    That and the fact that most of what you happen to be saying is incorrect, but it isn't worth arguing about any longer here. An FFL will not sell to a military spouse with their dependent ID card and their spouses orders, so it doesn't matter what is written here.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    That and the fact that most of what you happen to be saying is incorrect, but it isn't worth arguing about any longer here.
    No it isn't. I have spent more time addressing this issue than doing my federal tax return. You have yet to prove what I have stated is wrong. I have refuted every point you have made with the appropriate references.

    If your DL is not issued by the State that the respective FFL is physically located in, the FFL needs to produce the necessary documentation to satisfy any possible BATFE audits or compliance inspections. The FFL may want a copy of the lease, mortgage or housing agreement in addition to your spouse's military ID, State DL and copy of your orders. It depends on the FFL. I do know that in States with major military bases such as Nellis AFB which is here in Vegas, it is not uncommon for Clark and Nye County NV FFLs to sell to military spouses who do not have a NV DL.
    An FFL will not sell to a military spouse with their dependent ID card and their spouses orders, so it doesn't matter what is written here.
    What you seem to forget is that FFLs do have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason just like any other private business. There's more than enough business for FFLs now given the current political climate. In fact, the firearms industry is one of the few sectors that is making a profit now. Quite a few FFLs do not fully understand what they can and cannot do even if you point out the relevant sections of the BATFE website FAQs, CFRs and USCs because they simply do not wish to potentially risk their license especially given the current Presidential Administration.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  9. #28
    wolfhunter Guest
    I work part time at a gun shop. The only time we refuse a sale to a military spouse is when they either don't pass the background check, or they don't provide a copy of their spouse's PCS orders, a document showing residence (lease or utility bill works), and a photo ID.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfhunter View Post
    I work part time at a gun shop. The only time we refuse a sale to a military spouse is when they either don't pass the background check, or they don't provide a copy of their spouse's PCS orders, a document showing residence (lease or utility bill works), and a photo ID.
    Thanks for providing a data point proving my point. Any commentary to this NavyLT? We have an employee of a FFL that confirms they sell to military spouses providing acceptable documentation of residency is provided.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  11. Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Well, let me present to you at least one instance where your statements are incorrect. A military spouse lives in Washington state with her husband who has permanent orders to Washington State. She is not required by Washington State, according to Washington Administrative Code, to obtain a Washington State Driver's license. Her "home state" is Wyoming and she has a Wyoming driver's license.

    So, according to 27 CFR 478.11, she is not a resident of Wyoming, because she is not present in Wyoming with an intent to make a home there.



    According to 27 CFR 478.11, she does not have appropriate identification to purchase a firearm from an FFL, as a Washington resident because she has a Wyoming driver's license.


    So, she cannot claim Wyoming on the 4473 as state of residence, because she is not a resident of Wyoming. She cannot provide suitable ID as a Washington resident to support an answer of Washington as state of residency on the 4473. So, by CFR's she is prohibited from purchasing any firearm at an FFL. Yet, she is perfectly legal to obtain a Washington State CPL (and has) and is perfectly legal to purchase firearms in private sales because there are no ID requirements specified for private sales.
    It is convoluted at best; confusing at worst. Yes, you are a resident of that state in which you intend to make a residence/home. However, consider this... if I am in Kansas and take a hotel room for the night, I have indicated my intention to make Kansas my HOME. But only for that night if I happen to be driving along on holidays. I am a resident of the state that I am in. Some states have gone a step further and state that you are a resident after being there for 30 or 90 days. Some state that I am a resident if I register to vote in that state. And so on. It is about as clear as mud. And THAT is a fact. Without getting into a wetting war and after much telephone discussion with various license issuing agencies.

    Here's a corker. I am both a US and a Canadian citizen with residences in both coutries. My tax home and where I work is in Canada. I carry a US passport when entering the USA and must use my Canadian passport when entering Canada. That's the law. It is also the law that I cannot carry on my person while in the USA TWO passports so I get my wife to carry one until we cross the border. Silliness reigns. So, am I part of "We the People? or not?" I have carry permits legally from several states but mostly as a US citizen I believe. And there are some states where I would like very much to protect myself where the law is murky... but I have been told in no uncertain terms "If I am in the state and take a hotel room or stay with a relative and lay my head down.... I am a resident of that state at that particular point in time. Period." Just make sure that there is no 'period of time' associated with the concealed carry laws of the state associated with the eligibility. Like I say, clear as mud.

    And so, firstly stating that I do not believe that an American citizen requires any kind of license to possess any kind of firearm ("We the People and the second amendment, etc.) I go along with it as I don't want whackos running around with guns (like the one I met in Orlando last year). Secondly stating the as an American citizen I consider myself part of "We the People" and do not believe that any state or political entity has the right to pre-empt the second amendment. I am entitled to carry - I have no problem getting a permit to do so. Let's just get on with it and let's cut down on the paperwork and make it law that if you have one state's concealed carry permit then you are good to go in ALL states, just like the driver's licenses.

    Make sense?

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