Can Canadians get a US CCW Permit? - Page 4
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Thread: Can Canadians get a US CCW Permit?

  1. Oh. And with regards to the 90 day residency period. That is a FEDERAL law having to do with the PURCHASE of firearms and has nothing to do with the carrying of firearms per se. Therefore, I can bring my own firearm with me, already owned, without any trouble. Either as a Canadian or as an American citizen. It is the concealed carry permit part that gets confusing where residency is involved as often the statutes simply state "must be a resident" without giving details. Like I said, if I inend to lay my head down to sleep in State X, I am a resident of state X for as long as I am there, statutory law not being to the contrary. That is common law.

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  3. Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    Thanks for providing a data point proving my point. Any commentary to this NavyLT? We have an employee of a FFL that confirms they sell to military spouses providing acceptable documentation of residency is provided.
    I do not have any commentary on this. BATFE does, however:

    Lt.,

    It is legal for active duty to obtain a handgun from an FFL using the two items you stated. It states that on the back of the 4473. It does not and will not apply to the spouse. The spouse would have to get an state ID card to show residency.

    Nick...
    Special Agent/Senior Operations Officer
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosive Seattle Field Division
    915 Second Ave. Suite 790
    Seattle, WA 98174

    -----Original Message-----
    From: H..., John M LT FRCNW
    Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 10:57
    To: 'S...., Nicholas'
    Subject: FFL sale of handgun to military spouses

    Nick,

    Thank you for all the help in the past, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my emails and questions!

    It is legal for an FFL to sell handguns to an active duty military member based upon their Active Duty Armed Forces ID and permanent orders to a state to verify residency. Does the same apply to military spouses and dependents? Can a spouse/dependent show their dependent ID card and their spouse's orders to verify state of residency an FFL to purchase a handgun?

    Thank you again!
    Very Respectfully,
    LT John H......
    Oak Harbor, WA
    *******

    NOTICE: This electronic transmission is confidential and intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and destroy this message in its entirety (including all attachments).

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    I do not have any commentary on this. BATFE does, however:
    BATFE does not respond to formal inquiries via e-mail for legal reasons. All responses to formal inquiries they respond back to via US Mail with the supporting legal cites on BATFE letterhead. Those are typically signed off on by much higher brass of BATFE as that can cost them a trial by rendering a legal opinion via e-mail. If you have a buddy in BATFE rendering official opinions which may be against agency policy perhaps we all need to make a phone call or e-mail to BATFE central office and lodge a complaint?

    Many States also do not issue State ID cards to temporary or seasonal residents such as active duty military, their spouses or dependants, Nevada being one of them. We have a FFL employee that acknowledges they sell to military spouses without an ID or DL issued by the State they're in. Do you really think this FFL would still be in business with that practice? Remember, all FFLs (except for 03 C&R) get at least one compliance inspection annually.

    One of the FFLs I deal with regularly went around with Sheriff Keller on this issue trying to get a NV CFP using his military ID and orders as proof of residency prior Nevada issuing non-resident CFPs. He was stationed at Nellis AFB. The NRS at the time required NV CFP applicants to have a Nevada DL or ID. NV DMV requires you to surrender your other State DL or ID to get one with the exception of the hard to get seasonal NV ID. For States that comply with the federal real ID act, you cannot get their State issued DL or ID without surrendering your previous State's.

    Also BATFE has it on their FAQ I have provided a link to that you can be a legal resident of multiple States. How does this buddy of yours explain that issue when a majority of the States will not issue a seasonal ID or DL but yet it is legal for someone to be a legal resident of multiple States in accordance to the CFR?
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  5. I'm done. You believe whatever you want. Whatever you can get an FFL to do, who the heck cares. It's on the FFL at that point, unless you lie on the 4473.

  6. Don't want to enter the fray, but...

    One point to the OP - you mentioned carrying in your hotel room and your car. Be very careful about the vehicle. In most states, only (ONLY) CCW holders can carry a loaded pistol in a vehicle. I don't know of a single state that allows a loaded long gun in a vehicle - even on an ATV. You definitely want to do your research on this, if you haven't already (you sound like the type of guy who stays informed)) or consult an attorney. This is one aspect of firearms law that (i think) most state laws agree on.

    Possibly i misinterpreted what you said/meant. But vehicle carry even by CCW holders makes a lot of cops nervous - seethe thread about "do you tell". In CT, for example, it's a felony to carry a loaded pistol in your vehicle without a CCW. Of course, its a felony to have a handgun at all without either a certificate or a CCW. If you're otherwise law-abiding and they catch you in a car with a pistol, let alone a loaded pistol, they will nail your hide to the wall.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants ... for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

  7. You need to keep abreast of the state's requirement for US residency as well; and how it is defined. I am having an issue with Florida right at the moment. I am a US citizen living in Canada for the most part but travel a lot like you do and stay with relatives much of the time that I do travel so have several US addresses, per se.

    Florida has actually asked me to apply.

    If you follow the process for the last updates to their statutes, they were done because of confusion in the term "resident" of the USA. They restated that as meaning either a legal non resident alien or a citizen. Somewhat convoluted.

    The gal at the licensing office told me to put down a US address from where I was applying as wherever I happened to be in the US at a given moment, I was a resident at that time.

    This is driving me bonkers. I have permits from several other states (non resident) but of course FL does not recognize any non resident permits period. And I am going to curtail my visits and business in FL unless I am able to protect myself and my family when I am there.... last year we had the distinct pleasure of having a huge honking revolver stuck in our noses by some whacko.

    What we need is a US Concealed Carry Permit. Sorry guys. Requirements? Not a whacko. Not a criminal. Over 21. Citizen or legal resident. That's it.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy View Post
    What we need is a US Concealed Carry Permit. Sorry guys. Requirements? Not a whacko. Not a criminal. Over 21. Citizen or legal resident. That's it.
    Over 18, 17 with parental permission, would be nice. Old enough to die protecting others in your country, you should be old enough to protect yourself in that country.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    BATFE firearms FAQ B12 cites the CFR.

    That is used by the FFL to determine residency status, that's why she has the same rights as you to purchase from a FFL. However, WA has an additional State law pertaining to transfers to new residents.


    I draw your attention to the relevant sections of 27 CFR 478.11.


    Alien. Any person not a citizen or national of the United States.

    ...

    State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

    Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

    Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
    The military ID, copy of her spouse's orders and WY DL should suffice as proof for the FFL that she is indeed residing in WA State during the term of her spouse being stationed in WA. To qualify for the multiple State of residency exemption you must provide documentation to the FFL that you do indeed reside in the State you're in if your DL or ID is not from the State where the transfer is taking place providing there is no State law prohibiting transfers to out of State residents. This is the same documentation you'd provide to the FFL if you were buying the firearm yourself. Example 2 under 27 CFR 478.11 is the relevant example in your case. Yes, the examples are codified within the CFR. With respect to purchasing firearms from a FFL, you and your spouse is both a residents of WA and WY.

    The federal 90 day period applies to aliens; persons who are not US citizens or nationals. It does not apply to US citizens. I have included the federal statutory definition of alien under 27 CFR 478.11.

    What you're probably confused about is RCW 9.41.090 which is the waiting period for new and non-residents of WA State. That's different from federal law. That's what's probably keeping you and your spouse from buying handguns in WA State, not federal law. There is no active duty military exemption for RCW 9.41.090.

    The only thing keeping me from sending you a bill for this is that I'm not a member of any State bar. I do know from my friends in the shark...uh legal, profession that you'd be buying me at least a stripped AR-15 lower about now for this debate. I could use another Jolly Roger stripped lower from Spike's Tactical for another AR-15 build.

    OK. So here's a good question. I am an American citizen presently owning a home in Canada. I do not own a home stateside at present. However, being pretty much retired we spend much time travelling in the states, hauling a house trailer and staying with friends and relatives. QUESTION: During the time that I am in Toronto I am obviously a resident of Toronto. During the time that I am staying with a friend or relative or hunkering down in a trailer park for a few weeks in, say, New York State, am I a resident of NYS for the purposes of applying for a non-resident permit from a state that issues non-resident permits and asks "are you legally residing in the United States?" or "Are you presently residing in the United States"?

    To answer my own question; I would think that travelling about so much, wherever I happen to park my trailer, whatever relative I am staying with, whatever house I have rented for a month or two.... THAT is my current residence and I am at that particular time a resident of the United States, no?

    Again, I am an a American Citizen, retired for all intents and purposes, and make my 'home' wherever I happen to set up for a few weeks, which changes on a regular basis. I have a United States birth certificate and a United States passport and consider myself, according to the Constitution, to be one of "WE THE PEOPLE".

    Everything I read and all conversations I have with state issuing agencies seem to indicate that all I need to do is put down a U.S. address (excluding a PO Box) where the application form asks for my residence as at that particular moment in time I am in the United States legally and am legally a residing in the USA.

    I just want to avoid hot water as I have permits from states that do not ask if I am legally residing in the USA; only if I am a US citizen, to which I answer YES and forward a copy of my passport. There are a few states, however, that do not recognize non-resident permits from other states and I would like to be able to carry in those states... comments?

    Oh. One other thing. I have yet to purchase a pistol in the USA as it is a nightmare bringing it across the US/Canada border. Firstly, the US demands an export permit which is a hassle. Also, I want to be able to use my handguns on either side of the border, so they all comply with Canadian law as well as US law; the magazines are within the proscribed limits (i.e. ten rounds for a handgun); the barrel length is over 4.25"; etc. SO.... purchasing a handgun in the USA is of no concern to me. I regularly cross the border with my handguns and have never had an issue going in either direction as my documentation is all in order and presented all the time, etc. My issue is only with being able to carry concealed in those few states that demand US residency in addition to US citizenship.

    PS - There are a few states that WILL issue to non-citizens. You are going to have to do some digging as I forget which states those are and the laws may have changed.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy View Post
    OK. So here's a good question. I am an American citizen presently owning a home in Canada. I do not own a home stateside at present. However, being pretty much retired we spend much time travelling in the states, hauling a house trailer and staying with friends and relatives.

    QUESTION: During the time that I am in Toronto I am obviously a resident of Toronto. During the time that I am staying with a friend or relative or hunkering down in a trailer park for a few weeks in, say, New York State, am I a resident of NYS for the purposes of applying for a non-resident permit from a state that issues non-resident permits and asks "are you legally residing in the United States?" or "Are you presently residing in the United States"?
    Many of them do ask for a copy of your State issued DL or ID; Nevada and Utah do.
    To answer my own question; I would think that travelling about so much, wherever I happen to park my trailer, whatever relative I am staying with, whatever house I have rented for a month or two.... THAT is my current residence and I am at that particular time a resident of the United States, no?
    Nope, it's one of the criteria I have listed below. The defacto criteria being the jurisdiction that issued your State DL or ID.
    ...

    There are a few states, however, that do not recognize non-resident permits from other states and I would like to be able to carry in those states... comments?
    You can't. You can forget CCW in CO, MI and SC. You can CCW in FL and NH if you get their respective CCW. Also keep in mind that the most likely encounter with a LEO is during a traffic stop. I'm assuming you have a Canadian DL which would immediately put you in the classification as being a non-resident for any CCW you may hold.
    PS - There are a few states that WILL issue to non-citizens. You are going to have to do some digging as I forget which states those are and the laws may have changed.
    Your State of residency for all practical purposes falls under one or more of the following;

    • State that issues your DL or ID (also the criteria a LEO uses)
    • State where you're registered to vote
    • State where you pay State income tax
    • State where you have filed a declaration of homestead

    Keep in mind that during an official encounter with a LEO what will determine residency is the jurisdiction that issued your DL.

    The best option for you is to get a US residence and make that your State side domicile and get their DL. Best choice would be probably Florida as you have no State income tax there and their CCW has high recognition and reciprocity. Another option for high recognition and reciprocity but closer to Canada is Michigan. However you have State income tax there. Another option would be a virtual shall issue county in NY State. However you'd probably have to stay in the county for an extended period of time. Also keep in mind unless you have a NY permit you cannot legally touch a firearm while in that State except passing through. The moment you stop in NY you are in violation of the NY penal code and are not afforded any of the protections of the FOPA or 18USC926A.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  11. #40
    Utah allows you to carry in the most states. You might look into seeing if a Utah permit would suit your purposes and then contact the Utah BCI (Bureau of Criminal Identification) and see what they have to say.

    Utah Department of Public Safety

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