Inform the officer or not when concealed carry? - Page 23
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Thread: Inform the officer or not when concealed carry?

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    As billwot posted, I guess states are becoming more "computerized"--it seems an easy stretch to think that they can come up with your CCWP when they look up your license and registration.
    That point was emphasized during my CCW training class. (Instructor was a retired 35 year LEO). He wanted to be sure we realized that if we were stopped by a LEO, he would already know that we had a CC permit. He suggested it would probably make things go smoother if we showed the pemit and advised the officer whether we were carrrying, rather than the LEO asking.

    But per the quote from teh back my permit, you are only required to show the permit if you are carrying.

    bill

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  3. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Ektarr View Post
    A criminal who doesn't disclose that he's got a gun if stopped for a simple traffic stop is merely exercising his Rights under the 5th Amendment...which is an option not available to us straight-arrow types.
    Yeah, this has been mentioned earlier in the thread. Very similar to Haynes vs. U.S. where it was decided that a felon or any other prohibited person cannot be charged with failure to register a NFA weapon, because that would be an admission of guilt. True, they would still be convicted for possession, just not failure to register. It seems reasonable to believe the same would hold true for laws that require informing LE of possession.
    Also, could the ability to peer into your situation (by an LEO) and see that you have a CCW Permit be construed as "unnecessary search" without probable cause?
    Ehh, I think it could be argued that no search was performed beyond the routine license/registration checks. Plus, if it were somehow found to be an unnecessary search, Missouri would have to change their entire CCW system. Their drivers licenses ARE their carry permits.
    The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

  4. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by kengrubb View Post

    I'm also not going to lie if I'm asked a direct question, such as "Do you have any drugs or weapons in the car?" Mas Ayoob related an incident where he and his daughter were driving near the Texas-Mexico border and happened upon a Customs Checkpoint. The officer was asking every vehicle stopped do you have any drugs or guns in the car. When the officer came up to Mas, he responded "Prescription drugs, personal firearms". I think this is without a doubt the best possible response one can offer to this question.
    But why volunteer any information at all? When pulled over, you are required to hand over your driver's license, registration, and insurance card upon request. Gun permits too in some states. If you don't have to inform, why do so?

    You don't even have to say a word to the cop, and you don't have to answer any of his questions. So my answer to "Do you have any drugs or weapons in the car?" or "Prescription drugs, personal firearms" would be something along the lines of "I have nothing to say to you officer. Am I being detained, or am I free to go?" Why give answers to possibly incriminate yourself unknowingly when you don't have to? Or subject yourself to a possible anti-personal-firearm cop with a bad attitude and a lack of knowledge regarding gun laws?

  5. #224
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    hey rayven: Your last post included statements like"why volunteer (any info)?"; "you don't have to say a word"; "you don't have to answer questions"; "am I being detained or am I free to go"--and you do not find these statements to be incriminating or turning a simple traffic stop by an LEO, who does not know you from a hole in the wall, into a suspicious and potentially dangerous situation? Are you kidding me? Hey--to each his own--if you think that is the way to deal with an LEO over privileges (not constitutional rights) you have been given (driving and CC) have at it; while you are being detained waiting for a backup LEO before further questions are asked of you, I will already be at grandma's house for dinner. You probably are right in everything you said but common sense tells me you are making a mountain out of a molehill and asking for problems.

  6. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    hey rayven: Your last post included statements like"why volunteer (any info)?"; "you don't have to say a word"; "you don't have to answer questions"; "am I being detained or am I free to go"--and you do not find these statements to be incriminating or turning a simple traffic stop by an LEO, who does not know you from a hole in the wall, into a suspicious and potentially dangerous situation? Are you kidding me? Hey--to each his own--if you think that is the way to deal with an LEO over privileges (not constitutional rights) you have been given (driving and CC) have at it; while you are being detained waiting for a backup LEO before further questions are asked of you, I will already be at grandma's house for dinner. You probably are right in everything you said but common sense tells me you are making a mountain out of a molehill and asking for problems.
    I do not find statements like that to be incriminating, because they aren't. If you refuse to speak to an officer, allow a search, etc., it is well within your rights. Numerous courts have stated that right in numerous ways.

    An officer who detains you longer than what is required for the original stop is one who faces a lawsuit, and they generally lose qualified immunity. They simply cannot violate your rights.

    Driving may be a privilege, but owning and carrying a weapon is my state constitutional right (PA, section 21).

    As far as answering questions, every single lawyer will tell you that you should never volunteer information to any law enforcement officer. Their job is to find any criminal activity, regardless of whether or not you think you are doing anything wrong. With so many laws on the books, we all violate the law every single day without knowing it.

    At the same time, the reason why cops have so much intimidation power is because we the people let them. I consider not talking to the police as a stand on principle. It may be easier to just answer questions, show ID and other things that aren't required of me, but why shouldn't I stand up for my rights? The reason we lose rights is because we don't use them.

    Each and every one of us has to make that decision though. I choose to stand on principle and not allow others to trample on my rights. I consider it to be a very important thing. You may not, and that's fine.

  7. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    hey rayven: Your last post included statements like"why volunteer (any info)?"; "you don't have to say a word"; "you don't have to answer questions"; "am I being detained or am I free to go"--and you do not find these statements to be incriminating or turning a simple traffic stop by an LEO, who does not know you from a hole in the wall, into a suspicious and potentially dangerous situation? Are you kidding me? Hey--to each his own--if you think that is the way to deal with an LEO over privileges (not constitutional rights) you have been given (driving and CC) have at it; while you are being detained waiting for a backup LEO before further questions are asked of you, I will already be at grandma's house for dinner. You probably are right in everything you said but common sense tells me you are making a mountain out of a molehill and asking for problems.
    I don't think a right given to us is a privilege and we should be able to exercise it in whatever manner we see fit, CC in a car or while riding a unicycle.

    Can you imagine it being a privilege to write a short story because you only have a license to write a novel?

    I would probably decide what I was going to do based on the behavior and attitude by the LEO. They are people just like you and I and they have a difficult job. However, if they can't look at me and see a law-abiding citizen that isn't a threat than they need to get more training. If they pull me over because I'm speeding and DUI I get what I have coming to me. If I get pulled over because I have a burned out bulb and they try to be intimidating I don't owe them anything except the respect due their position.

  8. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Ektarr View Post
    I didn't say he was 'found' to be carrying...I said what if he's stopped for a minor traffic violation, for example. He can't eventually be found guilty of failing to inform the officer he was carrying because that would violate his 5th Amendment Rights.
    Only someone with a license to carry can be compelled by law to share they have a license to carry. If the authorities tried to convict him on this point, his lawyer would take note of this and perhaps toss in the 5A for good measure. However, I doubt the authorities would try someone for failing to tell an officer they had a gun when the authorities could try someone for being a felon with a gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ektarr View Post
    Some may pick at this, but the fact is that driving, and it's attendant requirements, isn't a Constitutionally protected Right, but a privilege controlled by the State . . . unlike Keep & Bear.
    I would draw conspicuous attention to that silly little thing known as the Ninth Amendment.
    Ken Grubb
    Puyallup, WA

  9. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by rayven View Post
    But why volunteer any information at all? When pulled over, you are required to hand over your driver's license, registration, and insurance card upon request. Gun permits too in some states. If you don't have to inform, why do so?
    As I stated, I'm very likely not going to volunteer that I'm carrying--unless I think the officer is about to find out that I'm carrying or if I'm asked a direct question.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayven View Post
    You don't even have to say a word to the cop, and you don't have to answer any of his questions.
    To some extent, you are correct. However, one's general attitude tends to have the largest effect on whether or not you get a ticket.

    If you refuse to answer direct questions about drugs or weapons in the car, you're going to get asked to step from the vehicle and likely be subjected to a pat down search of your person. If they find a gun, and you're still refusing to talk, I'd say odds are good they'll have probably cause to search your vehicle.
    Ken Grubb
    Puyallup, WA

  10. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    I guess states are becoming more "computerized"--it seems an easy stretch to think that they can come up with your CCWP when they look up your license and registration.
    Yes and no. Depends on the state in question. Here in Washington, Driver's Licenses and Concealed Pistol Licenses are two separate databases. Both are at the Department of Licensing, but the officer has to run two checks--one for the DL and one for a CPL. Not to say an officer cannot run both a DL and a CPL check, but without a CPL number in hand the CPL check could possibly be more time consuming doing a name and address query.
    Ken Grubb
    Puyallup, WA

  11. #230
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    Hey y'all: Nothing like "stirring the pot" for additional forceful comments. To each his own as long as you don't make me do it. I respect y'all's responses and posts and enjoy the free for all. God bless us all, God bless America and let us all be safe and only have to "talk the talk" on this forum and never have to "walk the walk" that we so fervently discuss and post. Happy Holidays to y'all and I am sorry if my somewhat strident and pointed comments uset some of you--it is not meant to be that way--its just what grumpy old men do. I really do appreciate this forum and find retorts to my posts to be refreshing, and, in many instances, correct and humbling to my rants and raves.

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