Inform the officer or not when concealed carry? - Page 24
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Thread: Inform the officer or not when concealed carry?

  1. #231
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by kengrubb View Post
    If you refuse to answer direct questions about drugs or weapons in the car, you're going to get asked to step from the vehicle and likely be subjected to a pat down search of your person. If they find a gun, and you're still refusing to talk, I'd say odds are good they'll have probably cause to search your vehicle.
    If I refuse to answer direct questions about drugs or weapons in the car, I very well might be asked to step out of the car. Which I will do because I'm required to do. I will also lock my car behind me and inform the police that I do not consent to any search. They can do a brief pat-down, which I will not obstruct. If they find my weapon at that point, I will tell them where my license to carry is. Nothing more.

    At this point, the STILL don't have probable cause to search my vehicle. I have violated no laws and only exercised my rights. Exercising your rights does not equal probable cause. If they search me or my vehicle after I have told them that I do not consent, I will not obstruct. I will, however, immediately hire a lawyer and sue them for violating my 4th amendment rights, as well as my 1st amendment rights (freedom of speech is also Constitutionally equal to the freedom NOT to speak).

    So I don't really care how far the cop wants to take it. If he wants to risk having a lawsuit against his department, the city, and him personally (violating rights like this generally makes the cop lose qualified immunity), be my guest.

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  3. #232
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    Oct 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCharlie View Post
    I am from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
    I was taught that you must inform the officer as soon as you are approached.
    I don't know of any reason why I would want to break the law and risk losing it.
    They probably know you carry before they approach your car.
    Chuck
    I've read most of the posts and as far as I know, no one has suggested breaking any law. That would be stupid. Many states don't require notification. Many cities have poorly trained and anti-gun cops. I'm in Kalifornia. They don't require notification. L.A. City cops are largely inexperienced and L.A. is an anti-gun area. I generally would choose not to notify (unless they told me to get out of the vehicle and I was carrying on me). If I were in a gun friendly area, or in a state that required notification, I would always notify.
    Maybejim

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member CRPA
    Life Member SASS

    What you say isn't as important as what the other person hears

  4. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by rayven View Post
    If I refuse to answer direct questions about drugs or weapons in the car, I very well might be asked to step out of the car. Which I will do because I'm required to do. I will also lock my car behind me and inform the police that I do not consent to any search.
    I suspect when you go to shut and lock the vehicle you're gonna get physically restrained and prevented from doing so, but good luck with that windmill.
    Ken Grubb
    Puyallup, WA

  5. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by kengrubb View Post
    I suspect when you go to shut and lock the vehicle you're gonna get physically restrained and prevented from doing so, but good luck with that windmill.
    Unless the officer is looking for a civil rights lawsuit, you suspect incorrectly.

    This video was posted earlier in this thread. Regardless of your opinion of the ACLU, it is a great video. It's a bit lengthy at 45 minutes, but well worth it.YouTube - BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters
    The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

  6. #235
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    Dec 2009
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    Roanoke Virginia
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    Wow. 24 pages on this subject. My 2 cents. I've been teaching the Concealed Carry Course for about 15 years, former LEO and I have had the opportunity to instruct new officers. As concealed carry has become more and more popular, Academies and Departments have adjusted both their training and tactics. In most states the officer already knows as soon as he makes the traffic stop that there is a CCW on board. But lets say for arguments sake that the computer is down, or your driving or riding a vehicle that isn't yours. I teach my students to make the officer as comfortable as possible. Well off the road, 4 ways flashing, dome light on at night and hands on the wheel. I would (and have) had my drivers license, CCW and registration in my left hand before the officer approaches. I want the officer to feel safe. I don't want a ticket. Making him or her comfortable goes a long way toward me being able to talk my way out of the the ticket. Just like every thing else there will be that 10% of bad actors. Officers who want to show their ass. I would (and have) just smiled and take it. I then call the PD TRAINING OFFICER or Supervisor, and explain the issue I had. Ever since an officer took a pistol from a CCW holder at a traffic stop and while trying to unload it, shot himself, officers have been taught not to do this. In all things I try not to "Poke the bull". I also carry my lawyers card and she is only a phone call away no matter where I might be. The bottom line(s). LEO's have a tough job. There are rare dipsticks that do that job. If your legal, you have nothing to worry about and most of all ATTITUDE COUNTS.
    Just my thoughts. Max

  7. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by kengrubb View Post
    I suspect when you go to shut and lock the vehicle you're gonna get physically restrained and prevented from doing so, but good luck with that windmill.
    You absolutely have every right to lock the vehicle, and refuse permission for a search.

  8. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by kengrubb View Post
    I suspect when you go to shut and lock the vehicle you're gonna get physically restrained and prevented from doing so, but good luck with that windmill.
    When I step out, the door would get closed behind me. And I have a lock button on my key, which would be in my hand. Easily done with no way to say I was being aggressive or whatever.

    If the restrain me because I'm exercising my rights, whether that is to not allow a search, not to speak if I so choose, or to carry a weapon legally, then I have a mighty good lawsuit coming up. If they don't break the rules, everything is fine.

    You really should look into what your rights are regarding police encounters. They have certain things they absolutely must do, and those things generally are protecting your rights if you decide to enforce them. If you know what your rights are, you are less likely to ever have any major legal issues stemming from any encounter.

  9. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by PIG USMC View Post
    I teach my students to make the officer as comfortable as possible.
    Why? They are the ones making the stop. You don't want to be there. If the cop feels uncomfortable about stopping you, they have the option of not stopping you. I certainly didn't initiate the stop, so in my opinion, it isn't my problem. I just don't see why I should go out of my way to make someone else comfortable when that person is detaining me against my will.

    Quote Originally Posted by PIG USMC View Post
    I would (and have) had my drivers license, CCW and registration in my left hand before the officer approaches.
    I agree with the exception of my license to carry. It isn't mandatory in my state, so I don't do it. Again, I'm being detained against my will, so I'll do whatever is legally required, nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by PIG USMC View Post
    Just like every thing else there will be that 10% of bad actors. Officers who want to show their ass. I would (and have) just smiled and take it. I then call the PD TRAINING OFFICER or Supervisor, and explain the issue I had.
    And this is why those 10% keep it up. People take it with a smile. Why should we? What if we enforce our rights without a smile and just do only everything minimally required? Those 10% wouldn't be able to get away with the stuff they get away with now. My rights are more important to me than the possibility of a ticket. I can fight a ticket in court; once my rights are waived/gone, they're done. Plus, making a complaint against a police officer is just about as useful as me trying to claim ownership of Canada. The police protect their own, almost regardless of law.

    Quote Originally Posted by PIG USMC View Post
    In all things I try not to "Poke the bull". I also carry my lawyers card and she is only a phone call away no matter where I might be. The bottom line(s). LEO's have a tough job. There are rare dipsticks that do that job. If your legal, you have nothing to worry about and most of all ATTITUDE COUNTS. Just my thoughts. Max
    Nobody should "poke the bull". But they shouldn't roll over either. If I were to treat you like crap, I would expect you to resist. Why allow the cop just because of a possible ticket? And I can all but guarantee that your lawyer would want you to provide the least amount of information to any police officer as possible. The less you say or do, the less it can come back and haunt you. Even if you think you are helping / telling the truth. There are no defense lawyers who would advocate you talking to the police, ever.

    Yes, LEOs have a tough job, but they chose it. They also chose to stop me, and the didn't have to do that either. I feel no reason to help them at all when they are detaining me against my will. If you are legal, in theory you have nothing to worry about, but that's only in theory. There are multiple stories on this site, on the news, and other places regarding people legally carrying, and police overstepping their bounds and violating their rights.

    In the end, every single one of us has to decide the level of cooperation we will afford to the police if stopped. Mine is minimal. Yours is as much as possible to avoid a ticket, and that's fine so long as you go into it with your eyes open and know your rights beforehand.

    (sorry for the long post!)

  10. Max vs. Rayven

    Both of your posts are intelligently written, describing your points of view that have clearly been thought out ahead of time and with deliberation as to what is most important to you. But even though they couldn't be much more opposed, there is actually a lot of common ground. Rayven doesn't advise "poking the bull" at all, just that he prefers the minimalist approach; not at all like that yahoo some while back who suggested being a smartass. In fact, he states he will follow the law exactly, just not go beyond what he is required to do. I can't find a single thing wrong with that. Nor should a cop. Max also advises following the law exactly, but suggests a few things to make the stop easier, possibly avoiding a ticket. I think it just depends on your priorities. Of course, in a state that requires you to advise, the decision is made for you.

    But my priorities in a traffic stop are, in order:
    1. Not getting shot
    2. Not getting arrested
    3. Not getting hassled
    4. Not getting a ticket (i have 2 teenagers and already pay ENOUGH for my car insurance, thank you)

    Therefore, for me, the right approach is to put the LEO at ease right away. Providing the CCW seems (to me) an excellent start. Why? It answers two basic questions in a LEO's mind every single time he pulls over a driver. Does this guy have a gun, and is he going to shoot me? The answers are yes, and no. Hoodlums and cop killers are not likely to provide a CCW (doubt they have one) or advise they are carrying, especially at the beginning of the LEO encounter. Law abiding citizens, on the other hand, might do so. I will.

    I have certainly talked my way out of tickets before i had any of my CCWs, but then the answers would have been no, and no. When the first answer is yes, I simply don't want the LEO to find out accidentally or through the computer - it won't have the same effect as my advising up front. If the cop is a bad apple, it's going to go poorly anyway, even if the subject of firearms never comes up. The way i got to this decision was simple - how would i feel in their shoes? After all, while it's true that they chose their jobs, i'm glad they are doing them. And when you get pulled over, that's all it is - they are just doing their job.

    Anyway, this is a personal decision we have to make individually. As long as you follow the law, either way, then your choice is valid.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants ... for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

  11. #240
    I agree that Max and Rayven both have valid points. My level of cooperation and attitude depends a lot on WHY I was stopped. If I'm speeding, it's usually intentional (around here the vast open spaces invite it) and I have resigned myself to whatever ticket I could potentially get. If I'm pulled over, I'm polite and respectful and MIGHT allow the LEO a little lattitude. For example, I might tell 'em where I've been (bowhunting) and where I'm going (home) even tho I know they are not entitled to the information.

    Recently, it was late in the evening, out in the country, I was speeding, got pulled over and I went out of my way to make the cop comfortable. He had reason to stop me, he was polite, I was polite, and I told him I had a CWP and weapon (we're not required to do so). But I thought if I was a cop in the middle of nowhere pulling over a couple guys dressed in camo (my son and I were bowhunting), I'd want to be made comfortable as quickly as possible. FWIW, he knocked my mph down to a $10 fine and no points.

    OTOH, if I'm pulled over for a fishing expedition, then LEO gets the minimal amount of info from me (I used to ride in a MC, so I know what it's like to be pulled over for BS reasons). They didn't have to pull me over so the onus is on them. I don't care about their comfort level at that point.

    Either way you handle it, the most important point is KNOW YOUR RIGHTS.

    My .02 cents. Others may disagree (imagine that!).

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