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Thread: Inform the officer or not when concealed carry?

  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton Felix View Post
    If this had happened to free men and women, in a free land instead of Philly, everyone there before the cops arrived would have been armed and acepting of the responsibility for their own defense.

    But it did happen in Philly. So never forget for a second that, if you HAD protected yourselves, those same cops would have treated you MUCH worse than they ever did the perp they were chasing.

    I will never shirk my responsibility to potect myself, never give it over to another, least of all to police who have NO legal responsibility to protect me.
    The police don't make the law. Politicians do. Politicians that were elected by the FREE people of whatever town or city or state they live in. Don't like it? Move or lead a campaign to get somebody else elected. I might not agree with restrictive gun laws but that has nothing to do LEOs who risk their lives for strangers.

    I know people who hate cops because they infringe on their God-given right to buy or sell illegal drugs, or to drive with a blood-alcohol content above the leagal limit, or to beat their wife or girlfriend, or to posess child pornography etc. etc. Yup......according to those folks, LEOs are nothing but storm-toopin' Nazis and they were framed. Our jails and prisons are full of "innocent" people who were setup by cops. Yeah. Sure.

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  3. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall View Post
    That's why I respect LEOs on the whole. That's why I would show courtesy and inform the officer instead of throwing up red flags by pleading the fifth, so to speak.
    Robert Jackson one of the most noted jurists of the 20th century is quoted as saying "The intent of the 5th amendment is primarily to protect the innocent from unwarranted prosecution "

    Another Jackson quote

    "Any lawyer worth his salt will tell the suspect in no uncertain terms to make no statement to police under any circumstances."



    The fact that you elect to exercise your rights under the fifth amendment shouldn't throw up red flags. this is one of those things you either get or you donít. If you donít the only thing thatís really going to change your mind is a bad run in with a law enforcement agency, unfortunately you may not get a chance to put your new found perspective into action after said run in.
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  4. #513
    Whether you have to or not, think about this. With the ever increasing number of police officers that are involved in accidental shootings (even the ones that don't make it on the news), do you really want to take a chance at having a cop draw a weapon on you? Your better off telling them than not.
    .... And let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one. ~God
    http://www.cjdefense.com/ Wisconsin

  5. #514
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    respect? no red herrings, please

    The legal issues and ramifications of inform the officer or not when concealed carry, is the subject of this thread. Several, who believe that preemptive disclosure is the right way, in the same breath, equate it with respecting the LEO, adding a cherry reminding us of the danger of their jobs. Respect for LEOs and our awareness of their occupational danger are red herrings to this thread and discussion. Keep your hands on the wheel? Absolutely! Act compliant? Asolutely! Not a single person in this discussion who advocates keeping quiet shows or promotes disrespect to LEOs. If, when enforcers of law, modify the conditions of law to compel citizens to act beyond the law out of fears that the enforcer may be inept or in need of extra respect, compels government to get bigger; eventually legislating those fears into more law.

  6. It is refreshing to hear that there are at least some people out there with a touch of common sense. I can't believe there are so many who are paranoid about LEO's. Sure there are bad apples out there, just like in any profession. But no one will ever convince me that this is the majority. To categorize them all as being bad and are out to get you because you are legally carrying only shows your ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall View Post
    The police don't make the law. Politicians do. Politicians that were elected by the FREE people of whatever town or city or state they live in. Don't like it? Move or lead a campaign to get somebody else elected. I might not agree with restrictive gun laws but that has nothing to do LEOs who risk their lives for strangers.

    I know people who hate cops because they infringe on their God-given right to buy or sell illegal drugs, or to drive with a blood-alcohol content above the leagal limit, or to beat their wife or girlfriend, or to posess child pornography etc. etc. Yup......according to those folks, LEOs are nothing but storm-toopin' Nazis and they were framed. Our jails and prisons are full of "innocent" people who were setup by cops. Yeah. Sure.

  7. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    Whether you have to or not, think about this. With the ever increasing number of police officers that are involved in accidental shootings (even the ones that don't make it on the news), do you really want to take a chance at having a cop draw a weapon on you? Your better off telling them than not.
    Of all the reasons to inform I've heard this is the weakest. If your concealment is that bad you may wish to reconsider the wisdom of carrying your weapon concealed at all.

    I carry my Driver's license, POI and registration in my wallet, in the even that I get pulled over ( I can usually tell well before the lights come on) I have my wallet in my hand before I ever even stop the car. The Officer walks up to my car, sees my wallet (and my hands) in plain site. I don't have to dig around for my paper work and there's little or no chance the cop will ever see my weapon.

    Obviously, there are caveats, If I'm asked to step out of the vehicle I can almost guarantee I'm going to get patted down so before I move I open my wallet (still in that plainly visible hand) and hand the cop my permit. Same drill if I'm asked if I have a weapon.


    Now having said all that, I have seen this thread hundreds of times on various fora and it always breaks pretty much the same about a 50 - 50
    split for and against and nio one changing sides. So if y'all wish to beat this deceased equine be my guest
    See, it's mumbo jumbo like that and skinny little lizards like you thinking they the last dragon that gives Kung Fu a bad name.
    http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/ Internet forum dedicated to second amendment

  8. My. My. My. We certainly seem to have a load with either 'bones in the closet' of other reasons not to trust LEO's - that is understandable as I have also had the occasional experience with a cop who got up on the wrong side of the bed. But never to the extent to elicit the sheer hatred and venom that I have seen on here this morning. And always, lawyered up if necessary, exposed for what they were at first examination - or the charges were dropped and expunged from my records.

    I will state for the records once again, I have nothing but the greatest of respect for LE.

    If I am being stopped I am being stopped for a reason and the matter of my vehicle being searched is moot. It is going to happen in any event so I may as well be courteous and co-operative. Especially when it comes to firearms and in many states when you obtain a CCW, CFP or whatever, you give up the rights to reasonable search and seizure in any event. Read the small print.

    Yes, I am a great supporter of our constitiutional rights but I am not prepared to die at the side of the road for them. I'd rather support the NRA (life member) and such to get the job done as best we can.

    Bones in the closet? I do my best to keep my nose clean and keep out of the way of the idiots we are surrounded with.

    Thus far, I have not had any problems doing so - but who knows, perhaps one day I will learn a hard lesson? Until then, my personal feelings on the matter will not change. And if I am asked "nothing to hide, do you mind if we search your home? My answer will always be that I want to see the search warrant first". Border patrol/guards do not require search warrants in order to search you or your vehicle - give them a hard time and be prepared for vaseline and rubber gloves at the lower end of the scale. Fact is, they may have the right to COME TO YOUR HOME and perform same search without warrant.

    Best to stop waving around your constitutional rights unless you are absolutely familiar and certain of them. And even then, they can be twisted and used against you.

    Just try to open carry through ANYWHERE in the state of NJ and then plead your constitutional rights - I'm just dying to see that one go to the supreme court and get struck down as being illegal search and seizure, etc.

    Nope, sorry guys, I will temper my constitutional rights with what is practical and prudent at any given time and with regards to concealed carry I am afraid that my thinking is not about to change.

    Perhaps it is time for some to read the books put out by Ayoob and more interestingly by Bird... who documents cases of gross breaches of constitutional rights that were taken all the way to the Grand Jury and sometimes beyond, regardless. It makes some of the most interesting reading and education that you will EVER get in your life as a CCW/CFP holder. And well worth the investment versus the hearsay that one picks up on the forums where one needs to sort the wheat from the chaff.

    Bird, in especially, will be a real eye opener for some on these forums I can assure you. And they are all documented so that you can, if you wish, verify the information. Some of it is so 'out to lunch' as to be, well, "out to lunch", yet it is accurate and real life scenarios. We even have one guy who is a CFP who watched a cop get shot and killed, came to his aid and took down the shooters, only to be charged and have his firearms confiscated. The police union was so enraged that they actually went out and purchased from their own funds a replacement pistol for the fellow and honoured him at a dinner in his honour. Yet it took something like a year before he was "no billed" by a grand jury and all was set back on track. **** happens my friends, like it or not, believe it or not. Read some of Bird's books and find out for yourselves. Do NOT depend on these forums for your CFP knowledge by any means. And do not depend on YOUR interpretation of the constition for legal protection as each county, each state and even at the federal level the interpretations are all different and that applies from day to day.

    Nope, I know what I am going to do and I am going to do it regardless of what 'hearsay' comes my way, based on hard, cold, documented facts and experience.

    And one other thing - I too have had LEO's place themselves in harm's way on my behalf and place their very lives on the line for me. It does not sway my decision as to my course of action in any way. It was a nice thing to do and it was their job and I am grateful. But my course of action will be dictated by hard, cold factual evidence and information and nothing more or less.

    Read, learn, don't take your advice from these forums.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy View Post
    My. My. My. We certainly seem to have a load with either 'bones in the closet' of other reasons not to trust LEO's - that is understandable as I have also had the occasional experience with a cop who got up on the wrong side of the bed. But never to the extent to elicit the sheer hatred and venom that I have seen on here this morning. And always, lawyered up if necessary, exposed for what they were at first examination - or the charges were dropped and expunged from my records.

    I will state for the records once again, I have nothing but the greatest of respect for LE.

    If I am being stopped I am being stopped for a reason and the matter of my vehicle being searched is moot. It is going to happen in any event so I may as well be courteous and co-operative. Especially when it comes to firearms and in many states when you obtain a CCW, CFP or whatever, you give up the rights to reasonable search and seizure in any event. Read the small print.

    Yes, I am a great supporter of our constitiutional rights but I am not prepared to die at the side of the road for them. I'd rather support the NRA (life member) and such to get the job done as best we can.

    Bones in the closet? I do my best to keep my nose clean and keep out of the way of the idiots we are surrounded with.

    Thus far, I have not had any problems doing so - but who knows, perhaps one day I will learn a hard lesson? Until then, my personal feelings on the matter will not change. And if I am asked "nothing to hide, do you mind if we search your home? My answer will always be that I want to see the search warrant first". Border patrol/guards do not require search warrants in order to search you or your vehicle - give them a hard time and be prepared for vaseline and rubber gloves at the lower end of the scale. Fact is, they may have the right to COME TO YOUR HOME and perform same search without warrant.

    Best to stop waving around your constitutional rights unless you are absolutely familiar and certain of them. And even then, they can be twisted and used against you.

    Just try to open carry through ANYWHERE in the state of NJ and then plead your constitutional rights - I'm just dying to see that one go to the supreme court and get struck down as being illegal search and seizure, etc.

    Nope, sorry guys, I will temper my constitutional rights with what is practical and prudent at any given time and with regards to concealed carry I am afraid that my thinking is not about to change.

    Perhaps it is time for some to read the books put out by Ayoob and more interestingly by Bird... who documents cases of gross breaches of constitutional rights that were taken all the way to the Grand Jury and sometimes beyond, regardless. It makes some of the most interesting reading and education that you will EVER get in your life as a CCW/CFP holder. And well worth the investment versus the hearsay that one picks up on the forums where one needs to sort the wheat from the chaff.

    Bird, in especially, will be a real eye opener for some on these forums I can assure you. And they are all documented so that you can, if you wish, verify the information. Some of it is so 'out to lunch' as to be, well, "out to lunch", yet it is accurate and real life scenarios. We even have one guy who is a CFP who watched a cop get shot and killed, came to his aid and took down the shooters, only to be charged and have his firearms confiscated. The police union was so enraged that they actually went out and purchased from their own funds a replacement pistol for the fellow and honoured him at a dinner in his honour. Yet it took something like a year before he was "no billed" by a grand jury and all was set back on track. **** happens my friends, like it or not, believe it or not. Read some of Bird's books and find out for yourselves. Do NOT depend on these forums for your CFP knowledge by any means. And do not depend on YOUR interpretation of the constition for legal protection as each county, each state and even at the federal level the interpretations are all different and that applies from day to day.

    Nope, I know what I am going to do and I am going to do it regardless of what 'hearsay' comes my way, based on hard, cold, documented facts and experience.

    And one other thing - I too have had LEO's place themselves in harm's way on my behalf and place their very lives on the line for me. It does not sway my decision as to my course of action in any way. It was a nice thing to do and it was their job and I am grateful. But my course of action will be dictated by hard, cold factual evidence and information and nothing more or less.

    Read, learn, don't take your advice from these forums.


  10. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Robert Jackson one of the most noted jurists of the 20th century is quoted as saying "The intent of the 5th amendment is primarily to protect the innocent from unwarranted prosecution "

    Another Jackson quote

    "Any lawyer worth his salt will tell the suspect in no uncertain terms to make no statement to police under any circumstances."



    The fact that you elect to exercise your rights under the fifth amendment shouldn't throw up red flags. this is one of those things you either get or you don’t. If you don’t the only thing that’s really going to change your mind is a bad run in with a law enforcement agency, unfortunately you may not get a chance to put your new found perspective into action after said run in.

    I have no desire to be pulled over and I have no desire to have my vehicle searched. Not because I have something to hide (I don't) but because it's inconvenient. That being said, I believe that being cooperative will only end the situation quicker and get me on my way sooner. I will gladly take off the "tough-guy, armchair constitutional lawyer" hat and let the LEO go about his business if it means he's gonna hand me back my documents and tell me to "have a nice day" sooner rather than later. Remember - "Probable Cause" is a massive gray area and I'll put my money on the judge siding with the LEO if it ever came to that.

    The cop can easily (and legally) make the situation much worse for you than it already is. Do you know that in most (if not all) states, a LEO can write you a ticket for having a license plate holder that obscures even the smallest piece of lettering on the plate?? Not just the plate # but any of the lettering such as the name of the issuing state. That's just one example of what they could do if they were so inclined. There are a lot of other things they could do that are well within their legal power to do. Why give them a reason to inconvenience you even more?

  11. The police don't make the law. Politicians do. Politicians that were elected by the FREE people of whatever town or city or state they live in. Don't like it? Move or lead a campaign to get somebody else elected. I might not agree with restrictive gun laws but that has nothing to do LEOs who risk their lives for strangers.
    B2Tall, truer words were never spoken. The reason the Peace Officer of the past is a rapidly vanishing breed, the reason the primary mission of the State Patrol in my state is Taking Money, is ENTIRELY due to Politicians. It is those Politicians whose heads should be on pikes outside the gates of our cites (OK I like the occasional medieval turn of phrase ) But it is their uniformed Enforcer who is the visible target, and as American society continues to collapse, it is he against whom the citizenry will first begin to strike back.


    Likewise, torontogunguy gives very good advice: Do not take advice from this forum. This is a place to discuss and state opinions, but it's not a source of Legal Counsel.

    I'll reiterate: Because my personal experience ranges from working with LEO's who were outstanding and helpful human beings, to dealing with the occasional misfit or outright psycho in uniform (who made life hell for multiple families, yet continued in uniform under protection of a Sheriff who owed a favor to his father), to many who fall between those extremes -- and because I can see the continuing collapse of our once-free society -- I'll make the warning very simple: That person in uniform may be a friend to you and/or your society, or he may be an enemy. Be prepared for both. You decide what you will carry and what you will declare. Nobody can do it for you.
    ďThe police of a State should never be stronger or better armed than the citizenry. An armed citizenry, willing to fight is the foundation of civil freedom.Ē Heinlein

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