How Long Before You CC With a Bullet In the Chamber? - Page 9
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Thread: How Long Before You CC With a Bullet In the Chamber?

  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy View Post
    Without meaning to sound condascending in any way, you need to get out and get some really good lethal force on force training under your belt. You are under a number of misconceptions as I have learned by reading the information and reports available and by taking whatever training has been available. First, "you will likely have to surrender possessions or die" - big fat lie. If the bad guy has decided not to leave any witnesses, my friend, you are already dead.
    That's what I was trying to say. If someone gets the drop on you, having one in the chamber isn't likely to make any difference because you won't even have a chance to draw. The BG will get what he wants (unless you're the guy in Infidel's avatar ).

    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy
    Worse yet, if you are within your home or with family, you may have the pleasure of watching your wife, mother, daughter or sister raped or gang raped before you get that bullet through your eye socket.
    If you're at home, then you're probably not carrying, and "watching" the BG do his thing. This is an example of what I called "the second scenario". This BG probably did not enter silently, so you had time to become armed. But, perhaps the OP has no problem keeping one in the chamber when the gun is at home. The question was about while carrying.

    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy
    What we are talking about here is fractions of a second and the simple ability to rack a round into the chamber while under life and death stress. THAT is why you carry with one in the chamber.
    True. But, again I was submitting that not everyone wants to be that prepared. The discomfort with carrying with one in the chamber may outweigh their desire for "ultimate" readiness. They can decide to risk scenario one, and at least be prepared for scenario two.

    To what extent have you protected your home against burglary? Could you have done more? Do you have burglar bars? High end alarm system? Deadbolts on all doors? Guard dog? A moat? Someone's choice to be less prepared is no more wrong than your choice to carry .xx cal versus .yy cal.

    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy
    The last account I read (in great detail) has the good guy hit from behind by an old beat up car and the driver of that old beat up car get out and start walking towards the good guy's window. On arriving at the window, the good guy has already drawn his weapon and is holding it beside him out of sight, just in case... the bad guy turns out to be a bad guy after all... and the good guy sees a pistol coming up from behind the bad guy's back/buttocks, lifts his shaky hand and lets two go through the window, whereupon the bad guy walks back to his car, gets in and attempts to leave, hitting a light pole/tree (I forget) where he expires. Had the good guy drawn and racked a round in sight of the bad guy and the bad guy turned out to NOT be a bad guy, the good guy could have been charged with brandishing, "a class 6 felony in this jurisdiction" according to the account. Instead, he lived.
    This case does not support carrying a round in the chamber. You had plenty of time to get the gun ready.

    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy
    Next case, a convenience store owner who has been robbed at gunpoint in past and is a wee bit shell shocked. He is permitted to carry and is carrying a .38 revolver in his pocket. Funky looking guys walk into his store and he suspects no good has arrived again - puts his hand on the gun and holds it in his pocket. Bad guy walks up to him pretending to buy a chocolate bar and hauls out a HUGE knife and attempts to lunge at our good guy, who simply pulls the trigger six times, setting his pants on fire, hitting the bad guy exactly zero times. Bad guy exits stage left and is never seen again. When police arrive the store owner is worried that he hit the bad guy and is told there is no blood trail, the bad guy is likely in the next county and has probably taken up another line of work already... the cops are laughing about it. And so on. "Thank God I Had a Gun" is a marvellous book of real accounts just like the aforementioned - both sides of the fence to be fair - and is an invaluable aid to making your own life and death decisions.
    This case does support keeping a round in the chamber. And, you said yourself, "making your own life and death decisions".

    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy
    So, for the umpteenth time (and rest assured I don't have the spare time to be typing this in on a regular basis... I have lots of better things to be doing but want my fellow good guys to be safe, trained, and ready).... I spent the first TWO or THREE YEARS carrying with one in the chamber with some guns and not in the chamber with others. I am whittling my carry pieces down to just a few and the number one consideration is DO I FEEL COMFY CARRYING WITH ONE IN THE CHAMBER. If the answer is no - the gun is up for sale. Somewhere down the list (maybe second) is DOES IT CARRY WELL? And so on. I will NOT carry any longer without a round chambered, the gun cocked and ready to go. That limits your choices to guns like Glocks, etc. I also do not carry anything that has a thumb lock on it. I want to poing and pull the trigger. That's it. Just like a revolver.
    I share your opinion. One in the chamber makes the most sense to me, too. My point is that not everyone is comfortable doing so, and that doesn't make them "wrong" or guilty of making a poor decision. Carrying without one in the chamber is NOT dumb or foolish - it may just be a compromise that an individual has to make to at least have some protection. Again, it's better to have some protection than none at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy
    And just to bring the point home. The guy that was bumped from behind? That we ME. In Orlando Florida. I watched as the bad guy wobbled from his beat up pickup truck up to my side window and I had noplace to go. I was boxed in and I did not have a gun. I spent the longest minute of my life saying "yes sir" and "No sir" to his rantings (high on drugs) before the light turned green and I decided that if he lowered the biggest damn revolver I had ever looked down the barrel of away from my nose, I was gone and he was in my dust. Fortunately he did not have the wherewithall to start shooting... and I was gone. And my vacation was gone too as I spent it looking over my shoulder and throwing up.
    Perhaps it was this incident that changed your position on the matter. You have valid reasons for your position. That still doesn't mean it works for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy
    But the other comments are right too. If your discomfort at carrying with one in the tube is going to make you leave your gun at home, then by all means... you are better to have your gun along without one in the tube than leaving it at home.
    Thanks for acknowledging that. That was the core of my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy
    Time to do some homework methinks. It's not an easy decision but once you realize the difference between a stick and a gun you will have come to the right conclusion.
    That's an unfair generalization. A gun without a chambered round is not always just a fancy stick. For the umpteenth time , in some situations, yes - in others, not at all. The individual needs to decide how far he's comfortable with going to protect himself. Don't forget that there are many gun owners out there (myself included) who could but don't carry. Are we "wrong" for not carrying? The answer is no. We are just unwilling to go that far in the pursuit of self-protection. Maybe I'll decide it's worth the compromises necessary to carry. Maybe an incident will push me to that change of heart. Maybe the OP will be convinced to carry with one in the chamber. But it's his choice, and he's not wrong for choosing differently than you.

  2.   
  3. Just a thought guys.
    My mags are charged to max at all times (Glock 10 rounders for instance).
    I am seriously thinking about buying a bag of magazine springs and changing out the springs on my carry magazines that stay charged to the max all year round. And I am thinking of changing them along with the batteries in my smoke and CO detectors once or twice a year when we change our clocks for Daylight Savings Time. Or perhaps on my birthday annually. This way I am assured that I NEVER have a misfeed due to a weakened spring in my magazine.

    Here's a question for those that carry Glocks. By racking one into the chamber are you putting sufficient pressure on, say, the firing pin spring (one in the chamber = cocked even though BATFE says otherwise) to cause weakening over time? That spring is also easy as pie to change out annually but I don't see my LEO friends doing that at all. In fact, I don't see them changing out their magazine springs either come to think of it. Food for thought.

  4. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by torontogunguy View Post
    Just a thought guys.
    My mags are charged to max at all times (Glock 10 rounders for instance).
    I am seriously thinking about buying a bag of magazine springs and changing out the springs on my carry magazines that stay charged to the max all year round. And I am thinking of changing them along with the batteries in my smoke and CO detectors once or twice a year when we change our clocks for Daylight Savings Time. Or perhaps on my birthday annually. This way I am assured that I NEVER have a misfeed due to a weakened spring in my magazine.

    Here's a question for those that carry Glocks. By racking one into the chamber are you putting sufficient pressure on, say, the firing pin spring (one in the chamber = cocked even though BATFE says otherwise) to cause weakening over time? That spring is also easy as pie to change out annually but I don't see my LEO friends doing that at all. In fact, I don't see them changing out their magazine springs either come to think of it. Food for thought.
    Don't waste your time and money buying extra springs... the originals will last a L-O-N-G time even with each mag fully loaded and kept that way. The springs will last longer than you will. Do a little research on metallurgy and mag springs - you'll find that the experts say the same thing. You will not get a misfeed due to a weak spring, unless you have a cheap pistol.

    And I don't carry a Glock, I have a Springfield XD-40, and it stays loaded and cocked 24/7. I love the dual safeties (grip and trigger) and feel perfectly safe carrying it that way. My BUG is a Kel-Tec P-11 and it's a DAO with about an 8 lb. trigger. Once again, it is always loaded with one in the pipe.

    If you are carrying, you are doing yourself a disservice if you do not carry fully loaded and ready. You will not have the "luxury" of racking a round and taking the safety off when the SHTF.

    I also carry ALMOST 24/7. I cannot carry at work, at least while I'm working, but I carry while mowing the lawn, I carry while watching TV, while grocery shopping, at a picnic or party, at the beach (tricky but doable), in my car or truck, shorts or jeans or a dress suit, in church, and a lot of other places which I will not discuss. I simply cannot see any reason why NOT to carry. It's my personal life insurance policy.
    -= Piece Corps =-

  5. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
    That's what I was trying to say. If someone gets the drop on you, having one in the chamber isn't likely to make any difference because you won't even have a chance to draw. The BG will get what he wants (unless you're the guy in Infidel's avatar ).



    If you're at home, then you're probably not carrying, and "watching" the BG do his thing. This is an example of what I called "the second scenario". This BG probably did not enter silently, so you had time to become armed. But, perhaps the OP has no problem keeping one in the chamber when the gun is at home. The question was about while carrying.



    True. But, again I was submitting that not everyone wants to be that prepared. The discomfort with carrying with one in the chamber may outweigh their desire for "ultimate" readiness. They can decide to risk scenario one, and at least be prepared for scenario two.

    To what extent have you protected your home against burglary? Could you have done more? Do you have burglar bars? High end alarm system? Deadbolts on all doors? Guard dog? A moat? Someone's choice to be less prepared is no more wrong than your choice to carry .xx cal versus .yy cal.



    This case does not support carrying a round in the chamber. You had plenty of time to get the gun ready.



    This case does support keeping a round in the chamber. And, you said yourself, "making your own life and death decisions".



    I share your opinion. One in the chamber makes the most sense to me, too. My point is that not everyone is comfortable doing so, and that doesn't make them "wrong" or guilty of making a poor decision. Carrying without one in the chamber is NOT dumb or foolish - it may just be a compromise that an individual has to make to at least have some protection. Again, it's better to have some protection than none at all.



    Perhaps it was this incident that changed your position on the matter. You have valid reasons for your position. That still doesn't mean it works for everyone.



    Thanks for acknowledging that. That was the core of my point.



    That's an unfair generalization. A gun without a chambered round is not always just a fancy stick. For the umpteenth time , in some situations, yes - in others, not at all. The individual needs to decide how far he's comfortable with going to protect himself. Don't forget that there are many gun owners out there (myself included) who could but don't carry. Are we "wrong" for not carrying? The answer is no. We are just unwilling to go that far in the pursuit of self-protection. Maybe I'll decide it's worth the compromises necessary to carry. Maybe an incident will push me to that change of heart. Maybe the OP will be convinced to carry with one in the chamber. But it's his choice, and he's not wrong for choosing differently than you.


    True. But, again I was submitting that not everyone wants to be that prepared. The discomfort with carrying with one in the chamber may outweigh their desire for "ultimate" readiness. They can decide to risk scenario one, and at least be prepared for scenario two.

    So what is the alternative to be "that prepared". Should we just be kind of prepared, semi prepared. Just do enough to lull us into a false sense of security. How is carrying one in the chamber discomforting. Does it make the gun two heavy to carry. Why would anyone be so afraid of carrying one round racked. Modern auto's "if you buy a quality one and not junk, are safe to carry with a loaded chamber. If some one is that afraid to do that perhaps some professional training is in order.

    To what extent have you protected your home against burglary? Could you have done more? Do you have burglar bars? High end alarm system? Deadbolts on all doors? Guard dog? A moat? Someone's choice to be less prepared is no more wrong than your choice to carry .xx cal versus .yy cal.

    Yes to all but the moat.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  6. #85
    If you are carrying concealed, you should have already decided that you would use lethal force if required. If you are comfortable carrying a concealed weapon, you should be smart enough to know that, if you need to use it, you will probably not have ANY time to do much more than draw and shoot. If your gun has a safety, you have to know how to get it "unsafed" quickly, and that in itself requires a lot of practice.

    Now, if you add to that the problem of racking a round into the chamber, you've probably already lost the race. And if someone has already down down on you, you haven't lost the fight (you have to get off the 'X' fast), but everyting else you have to do is costing you valuable time.

    I haven't met any LEOs yet who carry an empty gun. they may have a secured holster, and they may have a safety on, but they know they need to be prepared. If you carry, you also need that same preparation. If need be, get a gun that has extra safety that will make you more comfortable. The XD line is great - no manual safety to move, but the gun must be gripped and the trigger pulled before it will go off. I also carry a Kel-Tec P-11, a DAO with about a 7-8 lb. pull. It will not discahrge unless you really squeeze that trigger.

    It can be very safe to carry loaded...IMNSHO, I think that it's the ONLY way to carry.
    -= Piece Corps =-

  7. This argument will go on forever. Lethal force training will do much to help solidify the decision to carry with one in the chamber, etc. I carry (NOW) only those guns that, with one in the chamber, can be drawn with one hand and fired with one hand on a single trigger pull. Period.

    And this business of "if the guy's got a gun on you... your bacon is cooked" is only half true. I can assure you that there are MANY cases where you will have the time and wherewithall to draw and fire and protect your life. Sheesh. Yes, your odds are greatly reduced in some situations but NO NO NO it is not 'game over'. Movement, distraction, training, etc., will all give you a chance at survival by drawing and firing quickly and accurately, even if the bad guy has 'the drop on you'. The discussion is the topic of 300 page dissertations and not right for this forum but rest assured that if you DO NOT have one in the chamber, have training and are able to present, aim and fire accurately and VERY rapidly you will have no chance. I carry Glocks and Sigs with decockers mostly and am able to draw and get a first very accurate round off at CQB distances in about 1.25 seconds or less. That means the cardiovascular triangle (forget FORGET this centre of mass nonsense, PLEASE). And my intent is to keep on firing at both the cardiovascular triangle and/or the 'instant stop' triangle until I am absolutely (ABSOLUTELY) certain the threat is nil. Get trained, get practiced, be safe and ready at all times.
    Pardoning the pun... you must give it your best shot.

  8. #87
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Durham, ME, USA
    Posts
    6
    I've carried for 5 years, every day, mostly my Glock 23. I've never carried it with a round chambered. Mainly this is because there is no manual safety for the Glock, which I really like. Sort of a paradox! Either I'm crazy or it just makes sense to me. I have 3 young kids, and although I'd NEVER leave a gun within their reach, they are always climbing all over me, grabbing me, getting their little fingers and hands all over everything. The glock trigger could be accidentally operated by a kid while the gun is in certain types of holsters (like the stretch elastic types of shoulder holsters to be worn under sweatshirts), it seems, but they definitely aren't strong enough to rack the slide. A 1/1000 chance of this happening, of course, but psychologically it helps me feel safer to not have a round chambered. Yes, it's an extra 2 seconds that requires 2 hands to rack the slide in a crisis, but it's better than having an accident. Thoughts?

  9. #88
    Thoughts? Appreciate what you're saying about the kids and all but 2 seconds is a lot of time. That 2 seconds might be the difference between the kids keeping or losing their Dad. But only you can make the decision on what works for you and your situation.

  10. There is a guy I know who trains almost exclusively with "Israeli Combat Shooting"- I've taken a class from him and its pretty cool stuff. I still carry with a round in the chamber, but its insightful. He trains L.E, Security, CCW, and Military. Great guy..

    ICS or Isralei Combat Shooting - there is no round in the chamber..you draw, rack, present, fire and its pretty fast in ICS you don't use the sights, its called "instinctive" or "point" shooting. You probably won't win any matches using this method but when I took the class- I felt the program would definitely suffice for combat accuracy.

    This is one of his videos...just go on Youtube and type Robb Hamic if you want to see more.


    YouTube- Austin Texas Concealed Handgun deployment course
    Quick to the gun, Sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. - Chris Costa

  11. At one time or another, I carry pretty much all the above mentioned types of firearm. 1911's Condition 1, Cocked and Locked. Double Action Revolvers, Full Cylinder. My Kel Tec P-11, 12+1. Speed loaders/extra mags. Right now I am carrying the P-11. I open carried for years before getting my permit. Always Fully loaded. My daughter carries a P-11, I just convinced her to carry one in the chamber recently. Showed her articles like this one. Was always telling me she would have the time to chamber. She read the articles, she now carries with the round chambered. P-11's are as safe as any other firearm. 1911'S are as safe as any firearm. Revolvers are as safe as any firearm. People with unsafe practices make firearms dangerous. A firearm without a round chambered will get you hurt/killed. If you are in a SHTF situation you are already behind the curve and having no round chambered you are going to be even farther behind the curve. Be Prepared, an unchambered gun is just basically a complex paperweight. Just my thoughts on this subject, YMMV. Be safe, Be Sane.

    1. EVERY GUN IS ALWAYS LOADED!
    2. NEVER POINT A GUN AT ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY!
    3. NEVER PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO FIRE THE FIREARM!
    4. ALWAYS KNOW WHAT IS BEYOND YOUR TARGET!

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