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Thread: Insult my wife

  1. I believe the message is clear.... The responsibility of an armed citizen it to " Avoid confrontation" unless you or someone else are in danger of being harmed. That is where your preparation should be excercised.... Not to " clean out the gene Pool" of some loud mouth.

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  3. Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Hey torontoguy: Once again a great post. I was just about to post an obvious "what if" and your post basically discussed it for me.l This week went to a breakfast where a former NYC LEO and CCWP trainer gave a talk. I amy be incorrectly interpreting what he said, but the example is --you are walking down the street (most likely in the evening) and a 1 or 2 guys begin to approach you, either on your side of walkway or from across the street. They have a "look" that bothers you and makes you more aware of them than say your grandma. They are now 10 ft or so from you and you just sense a potential problem--you have your CCW. What do you do from a proactive point of view? 1)You can let them come right up to you--maybe all they want are directions to somewhere--- OR 2)you can say speak to them at that distance with one outstretched hand saying that you appreciate their interraction, you are armed, and you would prefer they indicate at that distance what they want with you, as your other hand demonstrably shows an intent to present a gun---OR 3)you can actually present the gun, fully or partially,as you hold up your outstrectched hand. I would think that action #2 is the proper call although, as I write this in the peace and comfort of my computer room, I would probably be wetting my pants a bit regardless of 1, 2 or 3.
    Comments?
    For purposes of discussion only....

    (1) My radar having been tweaked NO WAY am I going to let them get closer than perhaps 20 feet from me without taking SOME sort of action....
    (2) I think this is close to what I would be doing, namely raising my hand in a clear hand signal to stand back and not approach while hollering "stand back - what do you want" or some such thing. Strong hand goes to my handgun grip but I neither present nor brandish nor threaten at this point. I think I would be crossing the street to the opposite side of the potential threat or looking for cover at this point = I would be messing with their minds and plans is a definite. If they continued to approach after being hollered at to stop and changing direction to follow me or my group.... I would present a chambered gun and flip the safety off if it had a safety. At this point you are legitimately in fear for your life and well being and are entitled to present in almost (if not) every state. Split second decisions here so training is essential. If they changed direction and continued their approach to me after both a clear hand signal and hollering the words "STOP", "HALT", etc. I would not hesitate for another second and would take my shots as they are threatening my well being. THIS is bad news and you can expect to be arrested and carted off to jail and have a potential fight on your hands.
    (3) You cannot and MUST not present your firearm or make any threatening moves alluding to possession of a firearm unless you are clearly in fear for your life and well being - to do otherwise is going to be a felony charge in almost every state. That's why I suggest changing direction, crossing the street, etc. Whatever you need to do in order to make THEM show their intentions. Fractions of a second.

    There is a case where a widower heard sounds downstairs (pre-Castle doctrine law) and as she slept with a .357 under her pillow, she slipped out of bed and down beside the bed with the gun in hand. The moment the perpetrator ENTERED her bedroom she knew, through repeated training, that she could not wait another moment and had to take action. She fired a single shot and the perp turned and departed, bleeding out and collapsing somewhere down the street a few doors. She had also called 911 and when the police arrived she had placed the gun on her bid in clear view and was waiting. She explained her story. The police ARRESTED HER, confiscated both her firearm and carry permit. It was not until she was lawyered up and the lawyer made it clear to the DA that this would be a very public jury trial that would be detrimental to his re-election that things started to go her way. You see, the blood spatter, which was NOT reported in the police investigation, was also on the INSIDE of her bedroom doorway. In other words she HAD retreated as far as she was going to retreat - the perp had presented a real and present danger - and she had done what she was trained to do. STOP THE THREAT. No more and no less. She did not even know that she had hit the intruder until an investigating officer said "Ya, you got him alright". Although shot THROUGH THE HEART with a .357, he managed to meander out of the home and a ways away from the front door before collapsing from the fatal wound. It was ONLY the blood spatter on the inside of the doorway that saved her bacon and regretably, I believe she wound up losing her home as a result of the legal bills involved.... or she managed to get her costs back from the county due to the bungled investigation (can't remember which). It is in the two books I mention in another post which are dynamite reading and a real eye opener.

    Regardless of what you may think or what you may be told by someone that purports to know, YOU and ONLY YOU MUST MUST MUST be able to prove PROVE PROVE PROVE mal intent to cause grievous bodily harm or death in order to use lethal force. No maybe's here. No "I thunk" here. You must prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    That's why I would do exactly what you have chosen (and I believe to be the correct course of action). I would change my direction, cross the street, take cover, holler STOP, HALT, etc., place my hand on the butt or grip of my gun and only ONLY after the assailants continue to pursue me would I justifiably be able to assume mal intent and take my shots, remembering that this situation, even though it looks good on paper, is still likely to result in an arrest (ME) and confiscation of my weapon(s) and permits AND big BIG legal bills which I may or may not recover.

    Lastly, I don't know if you have been involved in a lethal force encounter or know anyone who has but you can also be pretty much assured of lasting psychological issues, however well-prepared you may be and tough as nails you may believe that you are. THAT is a proven fact to the extent that a number of fully legit shooters have wound up with heart attacks from the stress of the following legal proceedings and general psychological stress of having to take a shot or a life. It is an event that will surely change YOUR life forever, one way or another.

    I like to believe that after taking all of the training under the sun and reading and postulating on the matter at great length and having made my decisions as to my actions and then practiced them to the n'th degree that I would be able to live happily with the aftermath but I have a sniggly feeling in the back of my mind that this is not the case. Nontheless, I have my course of action planned, mapped out in my mind, have discussed it with my immediate family on more than one occasion and will do what is necessary given a set of circumstances like we have just discussed.

    Part of my lethal force on force training, by the way, included being disarmed and on another occasion actually killed from TWENTY ONE feet away. And this is AFTER being told that I was going to be disarmed and/or killed from 21 feet away! That is my protection zone - my decision zone. If you are threatening my well being or the well being of a loved one within that circle you are going to take some well practiced and well placed hits. NOT TO THE CENTER OF MASS of your body as many would teach you, but rather to your life support triangles. There are two of them. The first is a biggie and is a triangle that runs between your nipples to the base of your throat (expect a bleed out). The second is a triangle that's base runs along your lips up to the bridge of your nose (a small triangle, expect an immediate stop). And when I say "expect" that is exactly what I mean... expect it but do NOT count on it. I have seen reports where the bad guy was jacked up on drugs and continued operating for some time after taking 17 rounds to his heart/lungs. Same goes for the "immediate stop" triangle... bullets fragment and bounce around. I have seen a .22 make an instant stop (that is to say I have seen autopsy reports/scene reports) where the .22 entered the assailants skull and bounced around and I have seen the same reports where a .45 was fired and hit just so that it actually bounced off the skull and while creating some significant damage the perpetrator continued to operate at almost full steam eventually succumbing to a number of rounds placed in the body triangle.

    Make NO assumptions. Ensure that you have taken every opportunity to avoid confrontation and when all have been exhausted KNOW what you are going to do.

  4. #153
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    Hey torontogunguy:Re your last post----YOU"RE GOOD! Excellent treatise/answer to my post. Obviously, common sense like finding a way not to be in the "ultimate situation" is Number 1 on the list.

  5. Thanks for your kind comments. Remember, train, practice - know whay YOUR action plan is and then do not hesitate to follow it for one second. I forgot to mention one other thing and that is really simple. Have a card in your wallet and on your organizer called your ICE card (In Case of Emergency) and include several phone numbers on it:
    A lawyer that can be reached 24/7/365 experienced in these matters.
    A backup to the above lawyer!
    Your family contacts.
    The name of a good psychiatrist specializing in lethal force encounters.
    And the words "I WAS IN FEAR OF MY LIFE" "THE ASSAILANT WOULD NOT STOP" "I SHOT UNTIL HE STOPPED"
    You need to keep hollering STOP, HALT, GET AWAY, IS EVERYONE OKAY?, etc. to set yourself up as the victim and you need to have a cellfone with you at all times with 911 in the speed dial. The first caller tends to be the caller labelled as "victim" or "complainant" for whatever reason and THAT is what you want the paperwork to show in no uncertain terms.

    If there is something that the attending officers need to see and know you need to make sure they see, know and record same. The blood spatter on the INSIDE of a bedroom doorway, the gun that the perp threw into the bushes or creek, etc. These MUST all be HOLLERED OUT so that not only are they a matter of record but any possible witnesses (including other LEO's) have noted same. Not all LEO's are proficient investigators like on CSI - YOU need to make sure any way you can that important evidence is noted and hopefully retrieved while they are shoving you into the back of a squad car and hauling you off to jail. It could be the difference between a Grand Jury or a quick visit to the station.

    Read THANK GOD I HAD A GUN and THE CONCEALED WEAPON HANDBOOK for real life experiences. Eyeopeners.

    Above all, remember, it is better to be judge by 12 than carried by 6.

  6. #155
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    Hey torontogunguy: More great comments. To all of you out there--read torontogunguy's several posts on this thread--they are invaluable in providing you with a comprehensive treatise on every aspect of common sense planning that everyone with a CCW and a sense of home defense should have. Thank you. PS: Great idea on having the phone numbers of all the "after the scenario" people you should be calling, including the quick 911 immediately after.

  7. Sorry. One last thing. On that card should be the words "SHUT UP". They should be repeated to yourself every single time that you put on or take off your concealed weapon. Without fail. The slip of a single word can do far, far more damage than appearing to be unco-operative. Be pleasant and simply state that if you are being questioned about the incident, your witnesses will bear out the fact that you were in fear for your life with good cause... and they will also bear out that you gave your assailant opportunity to stop and instructed him to do so. AND THEN SHUT THE HECK UP. I REPEAT. SHUT THE HECK UP. Simply tell the officer(s) that you are in shock and require some handholding at the moment in order to gather your thoughts and that you are not going to be making any further statements on OR OFF the record until your attorney is holding your hand. You are just too shaken up and cannot think straight.. AND SHUT THE HECK UP.

    If you read the books I suggested they will show you what a SINGLE misplaced or mispronounced word can do to you. Changes the scenario from self defense to a reckless shooting - as in the case of the gal who shot the burglar prior to castle doctrine being in place. It was only the fact that her lawyer could produce a photograph of blood spatter on the INSIDE wall of her bedroom that saved her bacon (and come to think of it there was powder residue on the bedsheets as well).

    Remember - "Officer I am in shock and I cannot think clearly at the moment - I am going to need handholding by my attorney before making any further statements with all due respect". They may cajole you. They may play good guy bad guy. They may even threaten you and lie to you, telling you that if you want to stay at home tonight you need to speak up and tell them what happened. DON'T DO IT. Have an attorney present, both as counsel and as a reputable witness to your interaction.

    Sorry, I keep going on. Nuff said. Get some training.

  8. #157
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    Aug 2009
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    This was a great thread... Good read for all who have decided to take self defense to the level of carrying a firearm.

    Keeping it alive... JJFlash (applause erupts in the background)...
    You can give peace a chance alright..

    I'll seek cover in case it goes badly..

  9. Quote Originally Posted by JJFlash View Post
    OK, ya'll, I'm surprised and grateful for the counsel. Maybe I'm not a mature as I thought I was (and I'm effin' 56!). I was sure that I was gonna get more agreement on this. Hmmm...I'm gonna have to start re-tooling.

    FYI, I haven't been in a serious fight for a very long time; lest I sound like a macho butthead. Just enjoy posing scenarios and how I might handle them and getting feedback. I always learn something.
    I know what you mean . When I grew up in the '50's you were polite or your daddy would kick your buttI had a guy I bumpted into in a local casino . I said excuse me (it was his fault even ) . He said what you don't have perifferal vision ? I was a highly decorated amateur boxer . But I was carrying and that was first encounter with a jerk ! I am also 59 with a disability . I'm sure he would never have seen it coming . He was about my age also . If he continues (which these nuts do ) they will meet another angry nut too . We must remind ourselves we are better people (or Christians ) that some day we will be ourselves ( polite and God Fearing ) and unless they grow up they will be the same jerk and Lost ! God Bless and Know You are the better person and also know if the situation got real worse you could handle any situation !

  10. Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    Ignore it. Simple. Do not disclose you are carrying because then they can call in a false report of you brandishing you can kiss your CCW(s) goodbye in that case if the charges stick. There's also the issue of mutual combat which becomes murder in Nevada if one of the participants dies. We had a case happen like that here recently at casino in the northwest area of town.

    I'm much more even tempered carrying since I know that there's a high probability if things were to get out of hand I would end up having to use it. Part of the zen associated with legal and responsible CCW is avoiding conflict. It's a similar zen to what is taught in many martial arts by respectable instructors and dojos.
    Absolutely my local brother ! We probabally both know of crazy people mad at life (or a casino loss ) and take it out on us . Martial arts comparison is 100 % so armed is just as valid ! God Bless .

  11. You do know you will have your permit revoked after you are charged and convicted of assault after you beat this guy down ?

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