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Thread: what do I do?

  1. #81
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by LPC1625 View Post
    Parrot much?

    Again, if you read what I said, "can I help you" only replaced "STOP" if the first words "excuse me" seemed to break the stride of their approach. You are still motioning them to stop and stay back. If they're not stopping when you motion them to stop approaching and say "excuse me" you finish the sentence with the word "STOP". If at that point they still haven't stopped, it is time to have your weapon in hand as you continue to assess the situation (not pointing it at them unless an attack is imminent and that's all the time you have).

    To be brandishing, you need to have your weapon visible to the party in question in some form of threatening manner. As I stated, you should turn your strong side away and remove your weapon from the holster and keep it concealed behind you while assessing the situation, this is not brandishing it is being prepared. Again, if you read what I stated, the gun comes out at the point of the first warnings not being acknowledged and the party in question is still bearing down on you in a threatening manner.

    Menacing is a threat of violence. You are not threatening violence, you are warning that you will defend yourself against any acts of violence. At this point of the contact, menacing is what they are doing by not yielding their approach.

    Of course you're from NY and that's a whole other world up there. Normal thinking doesn't apply.
    A little touchy? I usually don't flame someone but let's straighten you out right now.

    First, I've been teaching this stuff to police, private bodyguards, homeland security, at the U.S. Military Academy, with SWAT teams and in various military and government contractor applications for decades. I've trained at the top facilities and have been doing it since most posters still had zits.

    Second, NO training academy will tell you to ask the person a question; you are taught to NEVER converse with the goblin... NEVER. Every defensive course from the top schools will advise the first action is avoidance. If you can't avoid or deter then a very loud direct command to stop is issued. If that person fails to stop you do not draw your gun, you move & retreat; it's less costly than paying an attorney $100K. Drawing a gun at that point is extremely dangerous and stupid. What if the person is deaf?

    When we talk about brandishing the actual crime is menacing and it is based on PERCEIVED threat. All you need to do is reach back and put your hand on that gun and the charge may apply. Your command to STOP doesn't have to be obeyed by anyone. If you're walking toward me and should command me to STOP I'll ignore you and walk past. No one commands me, ever. Who is this person telling me to STOP? Let them go to hell. Any action as I walk past would be considered a direct, imminent, unprovoked threat and appropriate defensive action would commence.

    You need some serious training to avoid making a serious mistake. this line of thinking is way off-base. This is what career instructors refer to as "Dangerous Man Syndrome." People "think" they know what they're doing. They "think" they know the law and they "think" they understand the financial and legal aftermath.

    Third... now for NY. I'll lay my CCW against yours in a heartbeat. No restrictions, concealed carry, permit good for life - no renewals, no limit on handgun purchases, no training requirement codified into law (other than three counties), no laws stopping the carry in a bar, restaurant, bank, hospital, mall, public transportation, municipal property, car, etc. The only place restricted by law is a school. I read posts on USA Carry from people in "gun friendly" states who can't carry on a bus or into a restaurant. Even Texas and Florida require renewal. Absolutely rediculous.

    NYS has about a 9% CCW demographic. Their are 34 houses on my 4-mile road. 29 have a CCW. The issues I mention have nothing to do with NY. If you don't like NY... stay out. But don't ever confuse NY State with that foreign country called NY City. I walk around armed and unmolested by laws.

    Next time a little more tact. A rebuttal is expected... but not an insult.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  2.   
  3. #82
    Join Date
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    Hillbillyville, Mountaineerland
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    First, I've been teaching this stuff to police, private bodyguards, homeland security, at the U.S. Military Academy, with SWAT teams and in various military and government contractor applications for decades. I've trained at the top facilities and have been doing it since most posters still had zits.
    Indeed those are nice qualifications, I advise some behavioral sciences they make a great addition. Anything at all that you can do to take control and change the course of the contact and forcing them into a response mode allows you to better assess the situation, whether that change in the course of the contact is to physically avoid their path by crossing the street or speak up or whatever you can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    Second, NO training academy will tell you to ask the person a question; you are taught to NEVER converse with the goblin... NEVER. Every defensive course from the top schools will advise the first action is avoidance. If you can't avoid or deter then a very loud direct command to stop is issued. If that person fails to stop you do not draw your gun, you move & retreat; it's less costly than paying an attorney $100K. Drawing a gun at that point is extremely dangerous and stupid. What if the person is deaf?
    I've not been to every single training acadamy out there, so I can't speak to all of them. I'm not saying hold a conversation, I'm saying after avoidance techniques have failed and the person is still bearing down on you to command them both through voice and visible motion of your weak hand to stop (which addresses if they are deaf, I already brought that up). If that doesn't stop them and they're still coming at you in what you perceive to be a threatening manner, I think you should be turning the side of your body you carry on away from them and at a minimum preparing to draw it. Whether that preparation is to just think of which shirt you're wearing or to actually start following through on the draw depends totally 100% on the situation. Some situations progress faster than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    When we talk about brandishing the actual crime is menacing and it is based on PERCEIVED threat. All you need to do is reach back and put your hand on that gun and the charge may apply. Your command to STOP doesn't have to be obeyed by anyone. If you're walking toward me and should command me to STOP I'll ignore you and walk past. No one commands me, ever. Who is this person telling me to STOP? Let them go to hell. Any action as I walk past would be considered a direct, imminent, unprovoked threat and appropriate defensive action would commence.
    Here you seem to be reversing the situation, the person following throughout the avoidance tactics with crossing the street and so on is the one doing the menacing. The one commanding the other to stop is the one being followed to an excessive degree of persistance and is being "menaced". If you were walking along and your path required you to follow someone, speed up when they do, cross the street when they do, and they finally turn and tell you to stop and you keep walking up on them in any manner that could be thought of as threatening, you sir are asking to be shot. Agreed that if given no reason to place my hand on my sidearm, it would be menacing, but at the point I'm saying your hand goes on the gun, you've already perceived that you are the one being menaced and are simply preparing to ensure it proceeds no farther than that perception.

    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    You need some serious training to avoid making a serious mistake. this line of thinking is way off-base. This is what career instructors refer to as "Dangerous Man Syndrome." People "think" they know what they're doing. They "think" they know the law and they "think" they understand the financial and legal aftermath.
    I've had what I think has been quality training myself, but I consider my life to be one big training class and am always open to learning more and having spirited debate. If speaking up to someone bearing down on you in what you think is a threatening manner is such a bad thing, give us some reasons that can be discussed or counter the point that I have made to it's benefit. You stated that gives them the opportunity to continue approaching, they were doing that even with you trying to physically avoid them anyway, so I don't see a change... All men are dangerous given the right circumstances, it is up to each of us to assess the situations around us as best we can and react accordingly. Anything at all within your legal ability to do to take control of a situation and provide you with more variables for analysis, raises your situational awareness and provides more indicators as to the person's intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    Third... now for NY. I'll lay my CCW against yours in a heartbeat. No restrictions, concealed carry, permit good for life - no renewals, no limit on handgun purchases, no training requirement codified into law (other than three counties), no laws stopping the carry in a bar, restaurant, bank, hospital, mall, public transportation, municipal property, car, etc. The only place restricted by law is a school. I read posts on USA Carry from people in "gun friendly" states who can't carry on a bus or into a restaurant. Even Texas and Florida require renewal. Absolutely rediculous.

    NYS has about a 9% CCW demographic. Their are 34 houses on my 4-mile road. 29 have a CCW. The issues I mention have nothing to do with NY. If you don't like NY... stay out. But don't ever confuse NY State with that foreign country called NY City. I walk around armed and unmolested by laws.

    Next time a little more tact. A rebuttal is expected... but not an insult.
    Confusing NYC and NYC isn't hard the farther away you are because the closer you get the weirder things get, but the same can be said about Cali too. :D Happy your rights are well off there, I too can carry anywhere except federal buildings, schools, court houses, and any no-firearms signs be damned (they carry no weight of law here).

  4. #83
    I have seen mention of the distance that you perceive to be when you cross the street vary. If when crossing the street, whenever I would see the BG move to cross to the same side as me I would immediatly double back and then be sure to see his intent. If he doubles back, Game on. Hand at a minimum on weapon. Verbally find out what his intent is right then. Proceed as necessary. Oh, And I love NY.......CCW laws......Not their self defense laws

  5. "...if someone has a problem or an intent, then its going to be initiated regardless."

    It ain't necessarily so. People, good and bad, change their minds all the time. When you make eye contact, change directions suddenly, speak before they do, or refuse to let someone close the distance to you, you are changing the physical situation which means things naturally get re-assessed. They have to make new decisions. If their intent is honorable, they may give you a funny look and continue on their way. If not, well, you've destroyed their element of surprise and they may very well decide they don't like the odds and forget about the intended attack. Suddenly you are not the easy target they were thinking you were.

    Basically what you've done is controlled the situation by interrupting their OODA loop, and given yourself more time to react.

  6. #85
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Central N.Car.
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    534
    You can draw your firearm without "brandishing" it. I have done so a few times when alarms went off. Pulled, hammered back, and held to my side when an old high school bud (did not recognize him)approached me with a stare. When he got close(ten feet)I recognized him and had to apologize. He laughed and said no apology needed and showed me his carry. We walked over to the "Bell" and had a taco to share old time stories. Inside 20 feet if rushed you will never clear holster. They will be on you that quickly.

  7. #86
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Sandpoint, Idaho
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    I keep seeing this thread pop up, and I realize that my last post talked about crossing the street, etc., but actually I wouldn't have to. My "small, friendly dog" is a little Jack Russell that thinks he's ten feet tall and made of spit and vinegar. The little SOB would have bitten anyone who got too close. Which is probably why he doesn't get too many walks about town.

  8. #87
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataw. Co. NC.
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    135
    One of my college instructors is a ex police officer. He lives in the city and takes walks. When people see him coming toward them some of them cross the street when they see that he is a black man.
    Be careful when judging a book by it's cover, you might over react and become the Bad Guy.

  9. Make direct eye contact. Do not move. do not show weakness or intimidation. Be prepared to act, not react.

  10. #89
    I just don't understand the fact that if ever you are involved in a self defense shooting that you end up arrested until you prove what happened in court, Why should the good guy have to spend time behind bars when he was the victim??

  11. just cross the street if he folows say can I help you if he is coming to you. if you think he is going to be aggressive put your hand on the gun . do not pull it yet. say what do you want? if he keeps coming pull the gun and keep it pointed at the ground but let him see it walk backwards. he keeps coming say say stop then point the gun and say stop again if he keeps coming, Now I am thinking this guy is way begger than me and very scary looking and (his face is scary like in mad) I am yelling so he can hear me.) (cause if it's a 16 year old girl and she is wearing a short skirt and white top and it's 3:30pm after school then I am way wrong) so It's MR T look a like and he has on a hell angels jacket and he looks like I took his cookie money if he get with in ten feet and I can not back up any more then I might shoot him. Now I know your going to say THE FBI SAID THAT SOMEONE WITHIN 21 FEET YADA YADA YADA. ok sure they could rush you but what if the guy is deaf and has bad eyesight and just had ate g530 chili thats got to make you look sick and he want help he rushs you and you kill him or he grabs you and falls down and you call 911 to help him. you save his life and he becomes mayor and you get a gov job where you carry a badge and sleep in a real squadcar.
    so do you shoot at 21 feet or wait till 10 or don't shoot it depends on the out come a guy escapes from prison's death row and has killed 200 people before he comes at you great your a hero. shoot the son of the mayor who is sick see ya later like 15 to 30.
    so what do you do? not what I would do what would you do what would the avg man do? Kill as a last choice.
    cause everyone is going to judge you after the fact in their arm chairs.
    err on the side of do not shoot wait that tiny bit more before you kill. you might save g530 he could have ate his own food, ya know!

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