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Thread: Is there a boogeyman?

  1. Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    davehayes.org Blog Archive The Gary Fadden Incident.

    The story is way to big to post here so just click the link to read it.

    This is the only thing I was able to find that matches with what you were looking for. Only problem is it involves a class III weapon used in SD.
    Going to Massad Ayoob Group class in March very excited.
    Quick to the gun, Sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. - Chris Costa

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  3. #12
    I don't have citations handy. However, I have seen a couple of cases where what were otherwise perfectly valid self-defense shootings based upon all the physical evidence and statements by witnesses other than the shooter be destroyed by very inarticulate statements by the shooter during police questionning right after the shooting, one of whom was poorly educated and whom I would have given the benefit of the doubt that neither the jury nor the appellate court did.

    For this reason, I strongly believe a person who is involved in a self-defense shooting should only give a minimal statement to the police, if any, stating that the person was attacked, feared for his, life, and acted in self-defense without further commentary, and then invoke his/her right to remain silent and speak to an attorney. A person should not give any further statement until he/she has had time to collect his/her thoughts and emotionally and mentally recover from the criminal attack that caused him/her to act in self-defense. Only then should a person, with the advice of counsel, consider making any further statements. At this point, I would not make a statement without the benefit of examining the physical evidence and other witness statements. The police do the same thing when they're involved in shootings, and so should the rest of us.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Attorney, The Law Offices of James M. Mullins, Jr., PLLC
    Founder and Past President, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by WVCDL View Post
    I don't have citations handy. However, I have seen a couple of cases where what were otherwise perfectly valid self-defense shootings based upon all the physical evidence and statements by witnesses other than the shooter be destroyed by very inarticulate statements by the shooter during police questionning right after the shooting, one of whom was poorly educated and whom I would have given the benefit of the doubt that neither the jury nor the appellate court did.

    For this reason, I strongly believe a person who is involved in a self-defense shooting should only give a minimal statement to the police, if any, stating that the person was attacked, feared for his, life, and acted in self-defense without further commentary, and then invoke his/her right to remain silent and speak to an attorney. A person should not give any further statement until he/she has had time to collect his/her thoughts and emotionally and mentally recover from the criminal attack that caused him/her to act in self-defense. Only then should a person, with the advice of counsel, consider making any further statements. At this point, I would not make a statement without the benefit of examining the physical evidence and other witness statements. The police do the same thing when they're involved in shootings, and so should the rest of us.
    Two weeks ago I would have completely agreed with you. Massad Ayoob, like him or not is internationally known and respected use of deadly force expert witness. I haven't taken his class yet, but in his taped seminars he states the following:

    Lawyers tell you to shut up because you might make a mistake in your statement. They tell you not to take the stand because its suicide. Most lawyers do not have experience defending an innocent man- most lawyers don't have experience defending a justified homicide. They have you defend yourself as though you are guilty. Let me ask you this, if you don't take the stand and tell your side of the story and stand up for yourself- who the hell is going to?

    By keeping quiet at a crime scene you may be letting evidence in your favor be brushed over and missed, once its gone its gone forever, that seemingly harmless and unrelated metal pipe at your metal shop where the incident occured may have been your ticket out of jail.
    Quick to the gun, Sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. - Chris Costa

  5. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ClearSightTactical View Post
    Two weeks ago I would have completely agreed with you. Massad Ayoob, like him or not is internationally known and respected use of deadly force expert witness. I haven't taken his class yet, but in his taped seminars he states the following:

    Lawyers tell you to shut up because you might make a mistake in your statement. They tell you not to take the stand because its suicide. Most lawyers do not have experience defending an innocent man- most lawyers don't have experience defending a justified homicide. They have you defend yourself as though you are guilty. Let me ask you this, if you don't take the stand and tell your side of the story and stand up for yourself- who the hell is going to?

    By keeping quiet at a crime scene you may be letting evidence in your favor be brushed over and missed, once its gone its gone forever, that seemingly harmless and unrelated metal pipe at your metal shop where the incident occured may have been your ticket out of jail.
    I don't think Massad Ayoob grasps of the concepts of a criminal trial.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    I don't think Massad Ayoob grasps of the concepts of a criminal trial.
    Please enlighten me :)
    Quick to the gun, Sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. - Chris Costa

  7. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    davehayes.org Blog Archive The Gary Fadden Incident.

    The story is way to big to post here so just click the link to read it.

    This is the only thing I was able to find that matches with what you were looking for. Only problem is it involves a class III weapon used in SD.
    That story was amazing. Thanks for the link.

    Hans

  8. #17
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    I sat on a jury in one such case, but the facts did not backup the defendant. Person claimed self defense in shooting a drug dealer and bully. Facts showed bullet marks in the stairway above the defendant's apt. With the bullet wounds in the BG in his back and at rising angles. We found the person guilty of the lessor crime of Manslaughter because firing a gun inside a building that results in a death has that charge. Penalty could have been time served but that wasn't for us to decide.

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClearSightTactical View Post
    Two weeks ago I would have completely agreed with you. Massad Ayoob, like him or not is internationally known and respected use of deadly force expert witness. I haven't taken his class yet, but in his taped seminars he states the following:

    Lawyers tell you to shut up because you might make a mistake in your statement. They tell you not to take the stand because its suicide. Most lawyers do not have experience defending an innocent man- most lawyers don't have experience defending a justified homicide. They have you defend yourself as though you are guilty. Let me ask you this, if you don't take the stand and tell your side of the story and stand up for yourself- who the hell is going to?

    By keeping quiet at a crime scene you may be letting evidence in your favor be brushed over and missed, once its gone its gone forever, that seemingly harmless and unrelated metal pipe at your metal shop where the incident occured may have been your ticket out of jail.
    Your lawyer is who defends you. There is no need for a defendant to take the stand if a case is weak. And it prevents a DA from a chance to examine a defendant.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by S&W645 View Post
    Your lawyer is who defends you. There is no need for a defendant to take the stand if a case is weak. And it prevents a DA from a chance to examine a defendant.
    I'm not an attorney so i'd definitely go with advice of counsel, just saying if its an "iffy" situation I think testimony would be helpful...again not an attorney so I have no basis other than my reasoning to back up my opinion
    Quick to the gun, Sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. - Chris Costa

  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClearSightTactical View Post
    I'm not an attorney so i'd definitely go with advice of counsel, just saying if its an "iffy" situation I think testimony would be helpful...again not an attorney so I have no basis other than my reasoning to back up my opinion
    In the case I talked about above, the defendant would have been better off saying nothing. Because she admitted firing the weapon in court, which the police did not have, we had no choice but to find her guilty.

    In a second case, the defendant said nothing and relied on his lawyer. The defendant walked.

    Anecdotal, yes. But this is why you pay a lawyer. It has always worked for me. If they say to not talk, you don't. The PA/DA or lawyer on the other side will always try to trip you up in custody, court or mediation. It is what they get paid to do, win the case. If your lawyer does the talking, the DA/PA or other side's lawyer loses that chance to trip you up. That is also the point of the video Don't talk to the police, silence without council present. With the change in Miranda, they don't have to tell you either.

    Lawyer: "When did you stop speeding?"
    Defendant: "I never have."
    Lawyer: "So you admit speeding in the past. No further questions."
    That in court could lose you the case as you just put the thought in the jury's mind.

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