When is it legal to brandish a firearm? - Page 4
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Thread: When is it legal to brandish a firearm?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ishi View Post
    Great discussion!

    I want to say that Ziggy's respect for the sanctity of human life shines through every post she writes, and it does her great credit. Molonlabetn is coming with some strong tactical analysis, and I enjoy reading that too.

    It seems to me that we're almost answering a question that hasn't been explicitly asked yet:

    Can a handgun be an effective and legal deterrant?

    Molonlabetn has been saying that the effectiveness of a pistol as a deterrant is questionable once the legal requirements are reached. Ziggy seems to be accepting the diminished effectiveness as a trade-off for giving the BG more of a chance to change his mind, thus avoiding bloodshed. Am I being fair to both posters with my synopsis?
    That's pretty fair.

    The only thing I'd add about myself is that I also am very committed to avoiding bloodshed, to the point of avoiding selection of that possibility until its use is required. I feel that intimidation is a poor reaction to hostility. Reason and then Force, immediately in that order, with the objective being to stop the encounter whether voluntarily by the perpetrator, or with finality by the victim. Once stopped, Force is no longer required.

  2.   
  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    ... but at my frustration with the many guys I've encountered who either state, or imply, that if they draw, they will shoot no matter what, and if they shoot, they will kill no matter what...
    let it begin...





  4. #33
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    If what I've read is accurate, there's a school of thought here that you wait until the very last second, when there's no doubt that you're in jeopardy of life and limb, and then...and only then...do you draw and shoot. I think someone said it was foolish to give an aggressor time to think and "mull it over".

    Forgive me, but what about a scenario where...upon drawing your weapon, in that instant that the aggressor recognizes the shift in conditions...he drops his aggression and any weapon he may have in hand and starts backpedaling like crazy. Surely the "draw-and-fire" motion isn't apppropriate here.

    At the same time, it's said that a person with a gun is in danger when confronted by a person with a knife within 7 yards...that the knife-weilder may be able to attack and cross that distance in less time than the gun-weilder can react! There needs to be a line in the sand in this scenario where...aggressing or not...any movement however subtle that suggests the knifer may be positioning himself for an advantageous position should be met - MUST be met! - with a bullet.

    Bottom line is, every situation will dictate the appropriate response, and one should have ALL of the various options at his/her disposal. Limiting your options by building in too long a response time, or too short a one, is not a good idea.

    All of this is my opinion after many years of consideration and a lifetime of handling long and short guns in a variety of situations. It's not meant to 'lecture' anyone or disparage their choices of how/when/what to carry or how/when/why they should present and/or shoot. I hope no one takes offense.
    NRA Life; GOA Life; CCRKBA Life; Trustee, NJCSD; F&AM: 32 & KT
    The Only Answer to a Bad Guy with a Gun - Is a Good Guy with a Gun!
    When Seconds Count...The Police are only MINUTES Away!

  5. #34

    What I see here

    Is a woman out in the field,,,, middle of nowhere with the opportunity to see a possible threat from quite some distance. With this she has plenty of time to determine if a possible threat is imminent and the time to draw (and load) well before the 21' line has been breached.

    I also see a CCW carrier in the city discussing the direction his training would lead him in an urban enviornment.

    We are talking apples and oranges here.

    I CCW an 'O' frame that is cocked and locked (1911 with one in the pipe, safety on) and would carry in that mode regardless of an urban or rural situation. I am a firm believer in carrying in a condition that offers the fastest response available regardless of enviorment.

    My question for Ziggy is; what if your support hand becomes unavailable to rack the slide because you are holding tools, notebook or you injure it making a move to create more distance between a BG and yourself? Now you have just a paper weight and I am sure there are plenty of rocks already available out in the field.

    I have always been taught that I should have my self defense firearm ready to fire and not have to do any other preperation other than to flip the safety if so equiped. I do acknowlege that statistics point out that drawing a firearm as a threat becomes imminent has caused many threats to cease before a shot is fired, but needing to rack the slide to arm your firearm is just one more opportunity for MR. MURPHY to intervene (maybe it will jamb).

    I can only assume you are in wide open territory where you can see for long ranges and be aware of anyone or anything (large cat) approaching. I carry in both senarios and would only carry with one in the chamber. I would highly reccommend and urge you become comfortable with your firearm in the most efficient carry method as well (remember MR. MURPHY).

    If we abide by the safety rules, keep the finger off the trigger and indexed on the frame, carry the firearm in a holster that completely covers the trigger, there is no threat of a negligent discharge.

    YMMV, but this is the way I see it

    spc
    :)

  6. carry

    A good post, SPC, thank you, but let me just post one more time, trying not to yell, that I AM NOT UNCOMFORTABLE with carrying one in the tube, I choose not to for reasons already espoused. I am NOT afraid of negligent discharge, I am well trained, I am comfortable with my carry weapon. I choose to carry unchambered.

  7. #36
    From the posts I've read, it seems like Ziggy fully understands the grave tactical problems caused by carrying unchambered and giving additional warning after a clear and present threat to life and limb are present. It's a personal choice then, based on her very pronounced (and in my view, commendable) hatred for violence. It's not a choice I make or recommend, but I understand it, and I have the greatest respect for the motivation behind it.

    In any case, carrying a gun gives a far better advantage than not doing so.

  8. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    A good post, SPC, thank you, but let me just post one more time, trying not to yell, that I AM NOT UNCOMFORTABLE with carrying one in the tube, I choose not to for reasons already espoused. I am NOT afraid of negligent discharge, I am well trained, I am comfortable with my carry weapon. I choose to carry unchambered.
    Thank you Ziggy, I put a fair amount of thought into my post after reading much of the debate.

    We should all be concerned about and concious of the possibility of negligent discharge as that does help keep us safe in our firearm handling. I am sure from your posts that you are trained well and comfortable with firearms and carry and you are using it to your needs and desires. I applaud and commend you for taking the steps to provide for your own protection as well. I wish more people would take that accountability into their own hands, especially women.

    You apparently feel that you are comfortable with unloaded carry and your ability to chamber if and when the need arises. I feel that you are in a location and situation where that is a very reasonable decision and that is why I was explicit about the difference between urban needs and your wide open rural needs.

    I would hope that you would take into account training to arm your gun with only one hand, such as hooking the rear sight on your belt to rack the slide or some other method of making your gun serviceable if Mr. MURPHY happens to show up at the wrong time.

    Most of us will never need our firearm for self defense, but if we are going to take the time, cost and energy to carry we should be as prepared as possible if/when the time does come. After all, that is our goal is it not?

    spc;)

  9. preparedness

    SPC, I appreciate the fact that you did read the discussion, and brought up points that hadn't been raised before. The possibility of having my left hand unavailable, or of having the slide jamb, are issues that I *will* think about. Murphy does indeed intervene, eh?

  10. #39
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    If it's time to draw, it's time to shoot. A gun isn't for scaring people.
    Better to perish in the struggle for freedom than live to see defeat. There ARE things to be feared more than death. The fyrd is a Constitutional imperative.

  11. #40
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    If it's time to draw, it's time to shoot. A gun isn't for scaring people.
    I respectfully disagree with Part A, for the reason I posited above: A situation can turn on a dime, and things can change from the time you draw to the time you fire. You may draw on an aggressor, but end up pointing at someone who recognizes his error and has become a retreater. Nobody wants to shoot someone inappropriately and an error in judgement ("Man, I picked the wrong person!") is not a Capital offense.

    Additionally, in my opinion, the act of drawing your weapon is a preparatory act, not a decisive one . . . there's still time to decide that the situation has changed/is changing and you need to pause or stand down. There's a reason they say that the mere act of presenting a weapon is a deterrent.

    Making the act of drawing/firing one smooth motion is contrary to good, intelligent self defense tactics.

    One man's opinion.
    NRA Life; GOA Life; CCRKBA Life; Trustee, NJCSD; F&AM: 32 & KT
    The Only Answer to a Bad Guy with a Gun - Is a Good Guy with a Gun!
    When Seconds Count...The Police are only MINUTES Away!

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