Defense loads and the law - Page 2
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Thread: Defense loads and the law

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by benzuncle View Post
    If people are so worried about the legal aspects, I question whether they should own a firearm for protection in the first place. They should just carry a 3ft stick, slap'em in the nutz then run like hell. (For multiple BGz, carry 2 sticks!) Obviously, criminals, BGz and the like aren't too worried, are they?
    I hope everyone has a wonderful 4th.

    I don't agree.
    I think it's prudent to think ahead to the aftermath of the shooting because in this day and age the chance that you will have to defend yourself in court are pretty high and most people don't understand the mindset of gun owners or carriers.

  3. #12
    I am new to CC as i am only 22 most of you on the forums have a lot more years with this and a lot more information i am looking to soak up. But i can not help but ask every one is talking about shooting the BG. Is the point of CC not a last resort? I know i my self would do every thing i could to get away before pulling my gun. Idk how the laws are in your states But in NH law says you must have done every thing in your power to get away from the attacker. I hope to god i never have to shoot some one. As every one in here has said there are so many people looking to make a name for them. Selfs by taking you to court and making you seem like it was all your felt and you attacked the guy you shoot and not the other way around. This day and age you would not just go to court one time but a second time. As even if the jury says you acted right and lets you go you can count on the fact that some who knows the person will try and sue you. Or take the gun maker to court or the ammo maker.


  4. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Green Valley (Henderson) NV

    Round choice.

    Any round that is generally accepted as a LE/personal protection round typically works. I've carried Federal classic rounds (9BP (now C9BP), PMC Starfire, Remington Golden Sabers, Winchester Silvertips and SXTs with Federal classic and Winchester being my preferences. All mature self defense rounds. In some cases, you are limited to what round you carry because of caliber choice. My favorite example is the 9x18mm Makarov. Popular pistol, but your only factory self defense round available is a Hornady HP/XTP. A Makarov is a viable self defense pistol. If you carry a Mak, stock up on Hornady HP/XTP rounds.

    I would also carry mainstream calibers; .380 ACP, .38 special, 9x19mm, .357 magnum, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. 10mm , .41 magnum and .44 special/magnum and are also viable choices, however, the cost for those calibers are more expensive. .41 magnum factory ammunition is difficult to find.

    If you're in an area where you have to worry about medium to large game as well as byproducts of our judicial system then I would carry something more exotic or larger. Keep in mind though, the larger bore and energy calibers are designed to be effective against exactly that. Expect over penetration with a handgun caliber that is also viable for medium to large game.

    As for using reloads. I would advise against it for two reasons; reliability and liability. You are not likely to incur any additional criminal liability for using handloads. However, it may get your crucified in civil court in a wrongful death or personal injury suit. Only a minority of the States have a civil suit immunity statute for justifiable homicide. An experienced trauma surgeon could point out the differences between using a hotter handloaded round over a standard pressure factory round that is issued to the local law enforcement agency.

    Factory ammunition almost always will be more reliable than reloads. The purposes of reloading are to develop a custom round, more economical rounds and personal enjoyment. You don't want to come across in civil court as being too Chuck Bronson. In a rural setting, using handloads won't likely be an issue. In an urban setting, it may.

    Reloading is great for developing practice rounds that simulate the handling of factory rounds, but I would not depend upon reloads in a self defense setting.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  5. A mouth piece would say you got special bullets to KILL ,home rolled ,and you could not refut it. Factory is just that all loads set to standards.

  6. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhaught View Post
    I don't agree.
    I think it's prudent to think ahead to the aftermath of the shooting because in this day and age the chance that you will have to defend yourself in court are pretty high and most people don't understand the mindset of gun owners or carriers.
    +1 on that. Unfortunately, prosecutors will try to portray law abiding gun owners who carry as paranoid hotheads who have itchy trigger fingers and are vigilantes looking for an opportunity to shoot someone. The c caliber and type of ammo being carried will not change that.

  7. #16
    frank.macher Guest
    The question of having to retreat and or doing everything you could to get away is not necessarily true in all states. The Cassel Doctrine (sp?) was signed by our Gov. allowing for no retreat - if you choose to defend yourself, you are within your rights. In the years prior to that passing, we had a duty to try and retreat, and woe be unto you if the BG got shot out side your home, etc.

    You'll need to see what the LAW calls for in your own state to determine what you can and cannot do.

    BTW, I understand the comments on reloads, the LEO generally prefer you to use factory loads, easier for them to investigate, also, they recommend in the classes I have taken to carry what the LEO carries, if it is good enuff for the LEO...

  8. Massad Ayoob has a book that every person who keeps a gun for self defense should read. It's titled, "In The Gravest Extreme.

    This will help to answer a lot of the OP's "beginner questions". Not to worry, I had those same questions over twenty years ago. An argument can be made for or against any viewpoint. Thr "trick" is having the most sensible argument and being able to explain why you did what you did.

    Buy Mas' book, you won't regret it.


  9. The danger to the CCW is that protocol is not followed and that a bystander is hurt.

  10. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Sunny South Florida
    There is nothing wrong with debating all of the variables in ones mind prior to the time of reckoning, provided it does not influence your thinking in action.

    If when the time comes that you may need to use your weapon, you are thinking, did I do enough to avoid the situation, will I have a reasonable defense, did I load my gun with the right ammo to be defensible in court ... none of it will matter because you will be lying dead in the street.

    TRAIN for what is a GOOD shoot and what is not. If it is a good shoot then it will be defensible, if it is not, well then you did not train long or well enough, but if you are going to think about it when the time comes ... please don't carry that gun in the first place.

  11. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Not saying that it isn't generally a good idea, but why does everyone keep saying to carry what LEOs carry? It seems to me that no matter what you carry, if the circumstances justify the shooting, why should it matter if the caliber of the ammo you're using is the same as the caliber that the local LEOs use? Does using a bigger caliber than they use somehow make it worse?

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