Defense loads and the law
Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 119

Thread: Defense loads and the law

  1. #1

    Defense loads and the law

    Hi, I'm new to CC, will be taking my class next week. Anyway I have heard many different claims about the laws concerning shootings in self defense and prosecution efforts regarding chosen calibers, gun type, and ammunition. I will be asking these same questions in my ccp class but wanted to get some input from people of this and a few other forums.

    I guess that my question is: What are the preferred calibers, weapon type, and ammunition type in regards to leaving the prosecution, should you be prosecuted or sued, the least amount of opportunities to portray you as a trigger happy, gun toter just looking for an excuse to shoot someone?

    An example of some things I've heard are that you should choose non magnum calibers becasue the magnum can be exploited in court. Also that hollow point or other destructive type rounds that can cause large wounds and trauma (which would seem preferable for stopping an attacker) should possibly be avioded as well. I've heard the Glaser rounds cause pretty serious wounds and leave a prosecution angles to exploit.

    I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this.

    I tried searching before posting this but couldn't seem to find the info I was hoping for.

    Thanks.
    Dan

  2.   
  3. #2
    The police use hollow points...

    The reason for using hollow points when in court is not to inflict the most damage, it's so the rounds don't go through the person and harm an innocent bystander. You are being RESPONSIBLE for using hollow points.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Honolulu, HI & Salt Lake City, UT
    Posts
    2,797
    Find out what the local pd carry and use that as an example. Most LEO in my area carry 9mm S&W 5906. There are a couple of LEO agencies that allow the .40 s&w round. I prefer the stopping power of the .40 s&w over the 9mm hence all of my personal defense firearms are .40 s&w. I use the same brand and type of ammo that the local LEO use. Consult your own legal counsel for advice. My choice of firearm and ammo was in part due to conversations with the atty I have on retainer.

    Find a caliber that you can shoot comfortably and accurately. When under stress, fine motor skills diminish. You don't want to be firing 2 or 3 magazines worth of ammo to stop one BG! That would look pretty bad in court. Keep in mind that you're looking to "stop a threat". Some BG is out to cause you serious harm or death, and obviously you don't agree with his/her intentions. With this in mind, as a "last resort" (I'd sooner hop in my car and drive off than get into a gun fight), you used "lethal force" to "stop" or "neutralize" the threat.

    I'm not an attorney, don't play one on television, haven't stayed at a "Holiday Inn Express" last night. DO NOT take my statements as "legal advice". Seek competent legal counsel that has experience in criminal defense if you want a "legal advice".



    gf
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Florida Panhandle
    Posts
    3,098

    Exclamation Do not use handloads for defense

    It is only a matter of time before some dirtbag ACLU (anti-Christ's Legal Unit) atty. brings it to the jury that you loaded that round to be a MORE EFFECTIVE killing machine. It ain't worth the hassle.

    Do contact the Local Police and find out what they carry. The rounds have already been tested and approved by the Police Dept's Legal team. Makes for an easier court case IF you do shoot a BG.

    When you load your defensive magazines/wheel gun & speedloaders...write the date on the flap of the ammo box. This will give the court a clear cut method of obtaining the Manufacturer and Lot number of the rounds used. The Manufacturer will be summensed and ask to provide ballistic data and possibly an expert witness for the ammunition used. This is a plus considering that they do not have to send in a sample of your ammo to a lab for testing at great expense to all involved.

    You only want to stop the threat. Do not ever say kill or terminate...things go badly in court after these utterings.
    FESTUS
    IN OMNIA PARATUS

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    4,675
    Finding out what the police carry? Keeping track of the lot number and date of purchase? Sheesh, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that upwards of 90% or more of people who are lawfully and peacebly carrying don't go to such lengths; I know I don't and don't ever plan to. I couldn't care less what the police carry; as long as I'm not prohibited by law from carrying a certain brand or caliber (the only such restriction I know of is in Oklahoma, where the largest caliber that can be legally carried is .45) I'll carry what I shoot best. Sure, I know that some prosecutors will try to make a big deal out of the caliber and types of rounds that people use for self-defense, but as long as I'm able to establish that that I fired my gun to stop a threat against myself and not because I'm some trigger happy hothead looking to shoot someone, I figure that any jury would believe me.

  7. #6
    If it is ok for the local leo's it has been to court .No reloads !

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhaught View Post
    Hi, I'm new to CC, will be taking my class next week. Anyway I have heard many different claims about the laws concerning shootings in self defense and prosecution efforts regarding chosen calibers, gun type, and ammunition. I will be asking these same questions in my ccp class but wanted to get some input from people of this and a few other forums.

    I guess that my question is: What are the preferred calibers, weapon type, and ammunition type in regards to leaving the prosecution, should you be prosecuted or sued, the least amount of opportunities to portray you as a trigger happy, gun toter just looking for an excuse to shoot someone?

    An example of some things I've heard are that you should choose non magnum calibers becasue the magnum can be exploited in court. Also that hollow point or other destructive type rounds that can cause large wounds and trauma (which would seem preferable for stopping an attacker) should possibly be avioded as well. I've heard the Glaser rounds cause pretty serious wounds and leave a prosecution angles to exploit.

    I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this.

    I tried searching before posting this but couldn't seem to find the info I was hoping for.

    Thanks.
    Dan
    It is generally accepted to carry as large a caliber as you can handle. (I'm not saying a 50 cal ok) Though for many it is a personal prefference. An 80 yr old woman shooting a .45, would be nailed in civil court if you see what I'm saying. I carry a .45 everyday, all day. As far as ammo goes, hollowpoints all the way. Ball rounds can go through people and walls, and you want a round good enough to do the job. A round passing cleanly through your attacker could allow them to keep fighting. You are liable for everything that round comes in contact with. Remember, it is not your goal to shoot to kill, only to stop the threat. Massod Ayoob has written many great articles on why you should use hollow points.

    I carry 230 gr Winchester Ranger SXT Talons in my .45, and 180 gr Ranger Talons in my .40. Yes, the box does say "Law Enforcement Ammunition" but that is a "Winchester" rule, not a law. They are legal to own and to use. They are the same as their "Black Talon" ancestor, but without the "Black" coating. If I find the link to Ayoobs article on this very subject I will post an update for you.

    Ultimately, it is your job to check the laws of your state and Municipal codes of your town to be sure.
    Last edited by UGA; 07-01-2008 at 08:37 PM.
    Stay vigilant, stay safe

    UGA
    www.AmericanSheepdog.com

    NRA Life Member
    USCCA Member
    America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.- Abraham Lincoln

    The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. Thomas Jefferson

  9. Avoid rounds specified as illegal by the state you live in. The laws are slightly different in each state. Know the laws in your state expertly. The lawyer will make you look bad regardless. That is their job. In the case of hollow points, there have been cases where the shooteraccepted liability in the shooting of an innocent bystander because the solid went through the BG and into the bystander. If you were an expert in reloading you could drop the charge and use a solid to reduce the velocity. We normal folks have to make do with the hollow points.

  10. #9
    I did a pile of looking on various sundry forums concerning Self Defense ammo and reloads for SD. I found 5 pages of comments on reloads/SD ammo on Taurus Armed.net - Index under the Reloads section. I read them all. No one really answered the question I had: Can anyone actually point to a court case where someone was taken to task for using handloads and shooting someone in self defense? One guy from Texas uses handloads because of the expense of full tilt boogie factory loads. He then loads his firearms with what he shoots at the range because his firearms will react the same and he knows what he is shooting. If people are so worried about the legal aspects, I question whether they should own a firearm for protection in the first place. They should just carry a 3ft stick, slap'em in the nutz then run like hell. (For multiple BGz, carry 2 sticks!) Obviously, criminals, BGz and the like aren't too worried, are they? Look what happened in Washington D.C. for over 30 years. Lambs were led to the slaughter because law abiding citizens couldn't protect themselves from those that don't give a rat's butt about gun laws. Factory defense loads for my 45's are basically a buck a round and I doubt that they will go down from there. To stock up on that stuff, I'll have to sell one or two of the Warden's sewing machines and risk divorce and all that goes with it. I'm looking at buying the hollow point bullets, such as Remington Golden Sabers, and reloading my self defense ammo. I do not "scoop" my loads; I'm content with the velocity and energy of middle ranges loads. And as I weigh the powder often when reloading, and will always have reloads for those in authority to check out should the SHTF and I go to court, I'm not too worried.

    I hope everyone has a wonderful 4th.
    I know a man by the name of Mel;
    he can't see but he sure do smell.

  11. #10
    You do want to use rounds that will terminate the confrontation as quick as possible. The more shots you have to fire the better the chance one of them may end up hitting an innocent bystander. By the way be sure that what ever you choose feeds well in you gun. It does not mater how potent the round is if you gun jams every other time you fire it.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Quantcast