Defense of a third party
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Thread: Defense of a third party

  1. Defense of a third party

    So I was watching cops and this lady was talking about how this guy was trying to rob her and her husband. They were elderly and when the man said he had no money the guy started to beat him. He was kicking him from what the lady was saying and she said if she did not do anything he might beat him to death. Now my question is this. I wonder a lot about this kind of stuff. Are you allowed by law (I have a CCW ) or maybe ever required to help this guy and use deadly force if he does not stop after maybe you warn him? Or if he comes after you? Now I do not think he had a weapon but this was an old man. This may or may not ever happen but just wondering. I live in Oregon if that helps.

    Thanks

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  3. #2

    Defense of a third party

    You may have a moral duty to step in, however, there may be legal ramifications because you interjected yourself into the situation. You may not be justified if you use deadly force. You have to read the state self defense laws and understand them.
    Guns.??? What Guns???

  4. #3
    be very very wary of getting involved with deadly force in any altercations that you randomly come upon. you will not know what is happening, who is the good guy who is the bad guy and you also run the risk of one of their confederates attacking you. if you happen to shoot someone and it turns out that you shot a good guy you could be in for a world of problems that will ruin your life.
    remember, you are just a normal citizen who has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, you are not a leo, you are not a super hero who is going to stand up for the oppressed, the weak or the innocent, you are just an average joe.
    I know that some will call me selfish and maybe they are correct, but I live a comfortable life and I am not risking it to protect others who are involved in things that I know nothing about

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Posts
    211
    To answer the OP, in my state, you would be justified under the law. Almost airtight if the lady backed your story. But you really better be sure that the people involved thought their life was in danger. What you thought does not really matter at that point. If you come accross some scumbag beating up a woman and you take him out, you had better hope the woman wasn't his old lady who tells the cops "he wouldn't kill me. He always does this but never really hurts me." In that case, you are probably going to do some time.

  6. #5

    Defense of a third party

    From what the CHL class instructor said when I took my Oregon class, regardless of whether he has a weapon or not, if you feel yours or some else's life is in danger, or feel the attacker could do "serious bodily harm" (i.e. you'd leave the scene in an ambulance) you are justified under Oregon law to use deadly force. Now as always, terms like "serious bodily harm" are open to court interpretation but from what I've been told Oregon precedents are pretty set on the definition "leaving the scene in an ambulance"

  7. I do not think of myself as a hero or anything. But these are things I think about. I hear these people talk about why do we need to carry and so on. And what better way to answer then to save someone's life. I know things like this may never come up. I just wonder about things like this at times. I appreciate the answers. I am sure I will have more questions about crazy stuff.

  8. #7
    Aside from opinions here, research and know your State's law on deadly force. Looking for it on an internet forum will get you misinformation and opinions. Start with: handgunlaw.us
    Generally it has links to State (.gov) websites where the criminal statutes are amongst others.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    South Carolina/Charleston
    Posts
    2,388
    Quote Originally Posted by dad45acp View Post
    Aside from opinions here, research and know your State's law on deadly force. Looking for it on an internet forum will get you misinformation and opinions. Start with: handgunlaw.us
    Generally it has links to State (.gov) websites where the criminal statutes are amongst others.
    I agree. First off you have to know if your state has the Alter Ego Rule, which allows you to act on behalf of someone else who is in IMMINENT DANGER as if that other person is you. Imminent danger is still the percursor to any action, whether it is you directly or a third party. All sounds good on paper unless you enter a situation, do not know for sure how a confrontation started and who are the combatants, and you act on behalf of the person getting the worst of it---you could be wrong in your assumptions, even if they look correct and responsible. The possible scenarios and who is good and who is bad can go far beyond who is getting "whipped" when you intercede. Unless you are essentially 100%, saw it from the getgo, calling 911 or combining with others to intercede w/o your firearm would, IMO, be preferred. In SC if you invoke Alter Ego and you were correct in doing so, you are not liable in any way for the results; that still does not mean you cannot be sued (where there is a lawyer there is a lawsuit). My philosophy is that my CC is for MY protection and that of MY family----I have to be totally and completely convinced of someone else's problem before I am going to draw my firearm and intercede under Alter Ego--it is just too easy to make a mistake when it is not your life that is in the equation.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno NV
    Posts
    174
    In my state, the use of deadly force applies to you or anyone in your presence as long as there is a reasonable belief of death or great bodily harm. If I were to stumble on a mugging in progress and the victim was someone other than Chuck Lidell, I would be justified in using deadly force if I believed the assault could result in death or injury to the victim. That being said, I'm not comfortable when people tell me things like "I wish you were when that guy robbed our store". Why? I'm not a cop. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I'm automatically gonna jump in and save your ass. 'm going to assess the situation. Some guy beating up his wife, I might say something, but I'm not going to draw unless the guy becomes a direct threat to me. I'd call the cops, but I'm not so sure I'd draw. If I'm standing in front of the Slurpee machine and some guy comes in and sticks up the 7/11, I've got a tough decision to make. If I shoot the robber, 7/11 will probably sue me for making a mess all over their wall. But given that 7/11 only sells Citgo gas, directly lining the pockets of Hugo Chavez, I wouldn't be caught dead in one of their stores anyway.

    I believe there's merit to the concept of the strong protecting the weak. To that end, I probably would do something. Whether it rises to the level of me shooting someone to protect someone I don't know, I can't say what I'd do for sure.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed​ lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddhaKat View Post
    In my state, the use of deadly force applies to you or anyone in your presence as long as there is a reasonable belief of death or great bodily harm. If I were to stumble on a mugging in progress and the victim was someone other than Chuck Lidell, I would be justified in using deadly force if I believed the assault could result in death or injury to the victim. That being said, I'm not comfortable when people tell me things like "I wish you were when that guy robbed our store". Why? I'm not a cop. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I'm automatically gonna jump in and save your ass. 'm going to assess the situation. Some guy beating up his wife, I might say something, but I'm not going to draw unless the guy becomes a direct threat to me. I'd call the cops, but I'm not so sure I'd draw. If I'm standing in front of the Slurpee machine and some guy comes in and sticks up the 7/11, I've got a tough decision to make. If I shoot the robber, 7/11 will probably sue me for making a mess all over their wall. But given that 7/11 only sells Citgo gas, directly lining the pockets of Hugo Chavez, I wouldn't be caught dead in one of their stores anyway.

    I believe there's merit to the concept of the strong protecting the weak. To that end, I probably would do something. Whether it rises to the level of me shooting someone to protect someone I don't know, I can't say what I'd do for sure.
    7/11: Now lining the pockets of dead people.

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