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Thread: The trial of George Zimmerman

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    I agree. I'm just giving my take on the trail as a trail lawyer.
    Fla also requires an "Armed Guard License" if you're going to be protecting property. IT'S A LIABILTY ISSUE, Did George have this license? If not, then his only defense is that Travon was aggressive and the event escalated to Life threating event. George escalated the event, he owns it. As a civilian he cannot escalate to a shoot. He engaged, made the assumption to take charge and engaged with a end result of death.
    I cannot feel that his engagement was authorized by Fla. State Law. JUST again MHO.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." --author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    Fla also requires an "Armed Guard License" if you're going to be protecting property. IT'S A LIABILTY ISSUE, Did George have this license? If not, then his only defense is that Travon was aggressive and the event escalated to Life threating event. George escalated the event, he owns it. As a civilian he cannot escalate to a shoot. He engaged, made the assumption to take charge and engaged with a end result of death.
    I cannot feel that his engagement was authorized by Fla. State Law. JUST again MHO.
    Curious how you know George engaged and escalated? It seems no one in the court room knows yet except George himself...so how do you know so much?

    America was once a great nation. When neighbors looked out and cared for each other, no license needed. America has torn itself apart...with a smile on our faces.
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  4. #93
    ezkl2230 Guest
    So we now know that "cracker" is a perfectly acceptable racial slur for blacks to use to describe whites, but "n****r," a word that is used freely among blacks (and one that I will not use) to describe one another, is completely unacceptable for non-blacks to use.

  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    Fla also requires an "Armed Guard License" if you're going to be protecting property. IT'S A LIABILTY ISSUE, Did George have this license? If not, then his only defense is that Travon was aggressive and the event escalated to Life threating event. George escalated the event, he owns it. As a civilian he cannot escalate to a shoot. He engaged, made the assumption to take charge and engaged with a end result of death.
    I cannot feel that his engagement was authorized by Fla. State Law. JUST again MHO.
    Florida State Law on the use of deadly force is pretty easy to find. And if you look on that Chapter/Section page of the code, it is sub-divided into easy-to-find specific issues within the overall issue of use of deadly force, including a sub-section on 776.041 - Use of force by aggressor, which states:


    The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
    (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
    (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
    (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


    There are very knowledgeable Florida residents on this forum who have stated that following or watching somebody is not a crime, and as such, is not considered an aggressive act in and of itself. There is zero evidence on the record at this point, whether witness or forensic, that establishes who confronted whom. Today's dishonest witness did everything she could to make it sound like Z "caught up to" M after M initially ran, but her testimony is anything but credible after today, and will likely be made even less so tomorrow. Regardless though, if Zimmerman was on the bottom having his head pounded against the concrete, as the only eye-witness to the fight said was true the very next day (video posted earlier in this thread), and he had a reasonable and good faith belief that another hit or two could knock him unconscious and unable to defend himself, even if he was the initial aggressor, the above code states clearly that he would be justified in using deadly force to stop the attack. And he did, which makes this a political trial, ravaged-up by the likes of Al "Tawanna Brawley" Sharpton and Rev. Jesse "Hymietown" Jackson in a race-baiting fest the likes of which we haven't seen since the Duke Lacrosse Team's rape-charges fiasco.

    I think Zimmerman made judgment errors that are indirectly responsible for the death of Martin. His poor judgment is not illegal though, and none of his poor judgment would have justified Trayvon Martin bouncing his head off the concrete sidewalk like a basketball, or "ground-and-pounding" him "MMA-style" as the only eye-witness said he was doing in the same video I referenced above.

    Even a sheepdog with horrendous judgment deserves a fair trial, and that's something that no one gets once Al Sharpton and a whole nationwide cabal of professional race-baiters gets involved in.

    Blues






    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    I don't know how many of you had the opportunity to watch/listen to the "girl" (she's 19, and was 18 at the time of the shooting) who Martin was on the phone with when it all started, but if I'm a juror, that young umm...."lady," just won the case for Zimmerman. She answered in direct examination from the prosecution that she could identify the voice screaming from a distance on the neighbor's 911 call as that of Martin's, but the end of the day question from the defense was in relation to her deposition with them during which she said something to the effect of, "It could be Trayvon, or it could not be. I don't know."

    She also exposed Martin as a flaming racist when she told one of the attorneys (I think it was during direct) that Trayvon answered her question to him about who was following him by saying, "Some creepy-ass cracker."

    She lied about her age early-on so as to purposely try to prevent the media from being able to publish images of her or use her real name.

    I've been a court-watcher since Court-TV first came into existence (like late 70's/early 80's maybe?), and I don't think I've ever before seen a worse witness for the prosecution who had direct knowledge of events leading up to a killing. She came across as cold, almost uncaring, dishonest, angry over even having to be there, and just downright stupid. What little intelligence she showed herself to possess was employed to come up with a lie about her age to get out of being in the media, and another lie to Mom about why she didn't go to Martin's wake because, she said dishonestly, she had to go to the hospital. She was belligerent and smart-alec in her answers to both sides, but more-so to the defense side.

    The defense said they probably had a couple more hours to spend with her tomorrow. If today's testimony is any predictor, that's about how long it will take for her to get Zimmerman acquitted.

    *Disclaimer: Nothing said in this post should be taken as me accepting a bet. I don't gamble, and I do what I can to support the pro-gun .orgs that I can support in good conscience throughout the year, not just when some poor shlub is being railroaded by race-baiters and politicos masquerading as prosecutors and judges in Sanford, FL.

    Blues
    If the defense had not flubbed the opening statement then this case would already be over. But that head start the prosecution got has been lost.

    Here is what the defense is considering tonight: How long can we keep the little brat on the stand before the jury starts to blame us for the agony?

  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    If the defense had not flubbed the opening statement then this case would already be over. But that head start the prosecution got has been lost.

    Here is what the defense is considering tonight: How long can we keep the little brat on the stand before the jury starts to blame us for the agony?
    HA! Yeah, well there is that possibility, but do you think the prosecution will forego much of an attempt to rehabilitate the brat's testimony? That could take days!

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  8. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Florida State Law on the use of deadly force is pretty easy to find. And if you look on that Chapter/Section page of the code, it is sub-divided into easy-to-find specific issues within the overall issue of use of deadly force, including a sub-section on 776.041 - Use of force by aggressor, which states:


    The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
    (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
    (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
    (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


    There are very knowledgeable Florida residents on this forum who have stated that following or watching somebody is not a crime, and as such, is not considered an aggressive act in and of itself. There is zero evidence on the record at this point, whether witness or forensic, that establishes who confronted whom. Today's dishonest witness did everything she could to make it sound like Z "caught up to" M after M initially ran, but her testimony is anything but credible after today, and will likely be made even less so tomorrow. Regardless though, if Zimmerman was on the bottom having his head pounded against the concrete, as the only eye-witness to the fight said was true the very next day (video posted earlier in this thread), and he had a reasonable and good faith belief that another hit or two could knock him unconscious and unable to defend himself, even if he was the initial aggressor, the above code states clearly that he would be justified in using deadly force to stop the attack. And he did, which makes this a political trial, ravaged-up by the likes of Al "Tawanna Brawley" Sharpton and Rev. Jesse "Hymietown" Jackson in a race-baiting fest the likes of which we haven't seen since the Duke Lacrosse Team's rape-charges fiasco.

    I think Zimmerman made judgment errors that are indirectly responsible for the death of Martin. His poor judgment is not illegal though, and none of his poor judgment would have justified Trayvon Martin bouncing his head off the concrete sidewalk like a basketball, or "ground-and-pounding" him "MMA-style" as the only eye-witness said he was doing in the same video I referenced above.

    Even a sheepdog with horrendous judgment deserves a fair trial, and that's something that no one gets once Al Sharpton and a whole nationwide cabal of professional race-baiters gets involved in.

    Blues






    All I'm saying is that George chose to engage. He did so while licensed to CC. This position of responsibility was only under a Home Owners Association volunteer program. If George was aggressive in the altercation, then I believe he is guilty of manslaughter. If George held a licensed carry guard permit then he could have been aggressive in contact of a probable perp. But he did not. JMHO....
    I was born and raised in Fla. and have held both Guard and Armed Guard License, although years ago. The presumption is are you allowed to engage or are you allow to observe and report. George was the latter. Anything he did afterward was aggression. He owns this and should take responsibility for it. Again, JMHO.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." --author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)

  9. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    All I'm saying is that George chose to engage. He did so while licensed to CC. This position of responsibility was only under a Home Owners Association volunteer program. If George was aggressive in the altercation, then I believe he is guilty of manslaughter. If George held a licensed carry guard permit then he could have been aggressive in contact of a probable perp. But he did not. JMHO....
    I was born and raised in Fla. and have held both Guard and Armed Guard License, although years ago. The presumption is are you allowed to engage or are you allow to observe and report. George was the latter. Anything he did afterward was aggression. He owns this and should take responsibility for it. Again, JMHO.
    So much for innocent until proven guilty...or due process...or a fair trial...
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  10. #99
    I have a neighbor who is male, 60-ish, 5”-8” or so, and slender build who gets a lot of exercise from walking. He's not "patrolling," just walking, but he keeps his eyes open, and he's not afraid to let people know he's watching. One time he came across a guy using a slim Jim on a car window. When asked, the guy said it was his car and he'd locked his keys inside, whereupon my neighbor pulled his cellphone out and said, "Then you won't mind if I take your picture." Apparently the guy was what he said he was, because my neighbor is still vertical...

    My point is that some of you would find my neighbor guilty if the slim-jimer had jumped him and gotten shot for the attack. What's up with that???
    Lewis - NRA Life - Oregon Firearms Federation - National Assoc. for Gun Rights

    Gun control is NOT about guns, it's about CONTROL.

  11. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    All I'm saying is that George chose to engage.
    As of this writing, there is zero evidence to support that conclusion. His story is that he was still out of his vehicle looking for an address to give the cops to go to when Martin confronted him after Zimmerman thought he was long gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    He did so while licensed to CC.
    Yep, also in his own neighborhood that a SPD records-keeper testified today had been plagued by burglaries in recent weeks/months. He was not patrolling as the Neighborhood Watch member, but on his way to (or maybe coming back from) the grocery store when he saw someone he didn't recognize walking around on a rainy night. It is not illegal to observe or follow anyone, whether licensed to CC or not, though he denies that he continued to follow the subject after being told "we don't need you to do that" in any case.

    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    This position of responsibility was only under a Home Owners Association volunteer program.
    Wrong. He was on a grocery run for his ol' lady.

    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    If George was aggressive in the altercation, then I believe he is guilty of manslaughter.
    Even if he was the one who could be heard screaming for help on the neighbor's 911 tape, and who the only witness to the fight says he was, indeed, the one screaming for help? Around 40 seconds of the altercation is caught on that 911 tape. Presumably it lasted longer than that or the neighbor would've had no reason to call. No matter what you believe, even if Zimmerman did confront Martin verbally, or even if he actually started the fight, once he tried to disengage and made that clear by screaming for help, he had no obligation to continue having his head beat against the concrete according to the law. That has nothing to do with whether I, you, or anyone else thinks that he was in error for ever getting out of his vehicle, the law says that if he was in grave danger after trying to disengage, he was justified in shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    If George held a licensed carry guard permit then he could have been aggressive in contact of a probable perp. But he did not.
    This case has absolutely nothing to do with laws regulating armed security guards. Nothing whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    JMHO....
    Your opinion(s) are meaningless when they are contradicted by the law, and in this case, they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    I was born and raised in Fla. and have held both Guard and Armed Guard License, although years ago.
    The law I cited above, 776.041, concerning use of force by aggressor, was revised in 2012.

    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    The presumption is are you allowed to engage or are you allow to observe and report. George was the latter.
    Wrong again. You're lumping together laws concerning the regulation of armed security guards with the acts of citizens observing the goings-on in their own neighborhoods. The only presumptions here are those that are supported by statute, and decided as having been abided by or violated by Zimmerman based only on evidence, witness testimony and the jury's conclusions about the strength and credibility of same.

    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    Anything he did afterward was aggression.
    Only if it was, and can be proven to a reasonable doubt, actual aggression. Asking someone what they're doing here is not aggression according to the law, and today's "star" witness said that is all she heard Zimmerman say before she could hear the phone rustling around in the grass and then losing the connection, suggesting that the fight was on immediately after Zimmerman's question. There is still zero evidence that Zimmerman was aggressive in any way that would fall under any FL statute that he is charged with violating.

    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    He owns this and should take responsibility for it.
    It sounds as though you are saying he should voluntarily take responsibility for murdering someone whom he says he justifiably defended himself against with deadly force. Could I possibly be reading that right? If so, I have to ask, have you ever heard of a little piece of sheepskin parchment called "The Constitution?"

    Quote Originally Posted by mappow View Post
    Again, JMHO.
    And again, your opinions are contradicted by the law.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

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