The trial of George Zimmerman - Page 13
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Thread: The trial of George Zimmerman

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by gejoslin View Post
    Disparity of force comes into the fight as TM was on top pounding GZ's head with the ground under GZ's head. That doubles if not triples TM's blows and could very easily deliver great bodily injury if not death to GZ. Which gives GZ the ability to use death force to end the attack. Weather he was the aggressor or not.
    Google Massad Ayood on Disparity of Force. He has testified in court on this many times.
    Absolutely. In PP we teach disparity of force. And one doesn't need a weapon to cause death or injury of such magnitude to permanently disable another. Banging a head on the sidewalk is no different than hitting someone with a chunk of concrete.
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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    Stand your ground laws aren't about being watched. Stand your ground came into affect after the physical altercation took place. So no, Martin could not "stand his ground" just for being followed.

    Zimmerman did honor the request to stop following.
    This is a grey area but, yes, you may stand your ground against being followed. FL statutes 790 & 779 do not require retreat from someone who is following you. Some other states have a "duty to retreat" provision, but this is also often misinterpreted. Duty to retreat is really designed to keep the two parties from coming to combat. To avoid road rage. To keep an argument from getting physical. But even in NYS (PL Article 35) the duty to retreat is gone once the attack commences. I personally would rather see the parties part ways before it gets bad. In states requiring duty to retreat the duty only exists if you can do so with complete safety to all. When waking with a child by the hand you cannot retreat. You may stand your ground. A disabled person may stand their ground, etc.
    .
    I have a feeling this jury will hang.
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  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    And by the way, in case anyone has forgotten (or never knew), the only eye-witness to any part of the fight will come during the defense's case, and unless he's had a 180 change-of-heart from what he said here, Zimmerman was being "beaten up" by Martin, who he clearly puts on top.

    I'm not 100% positive, but it appears that I was mistaken that the witness in the above video will come in during the defense case. I'm pretty sure he's on the stand right now, and his testimony has changed a bit from what he said in the above short TV interview. Now he's saying that he isn't "100% sure" that the guy who asked him for help was the one in the red top, and on the bottom. He hasn't equivocated about which subject was on the top or bottom, but in the video above he says that, "The guy on the bottom, who I believe was wearing a red sweater, was yelling to me 'Help! Help!'" Saying "to me" implies at least eye contact that he thought on that night he could discern. He is downplaying that now though, saying he's not "100% sure" which one was yelling help, and saying it was too dark to make out faces.

    The guy seems like a good witness so far, but the defense is going to have a field day with that "not 100% sure" and not being able to discern whether the cries for help came from the red-sweater-wearing guy on the bottom or not. I'm going to bet that O'Mara gets him to say that he's 90% or 95% sure it was the guy on the bottom crying for help. We'll see, but I still think he's going to be more helpful to the defense than the prosecution.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  5. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    The words contained within the FL code section(s) covering use of force are extremely clear. I don't think the words "disparity of force" are contained in those sections, but the meme is addressed as clear as it can be from where I sit. I believe the bolded text above is perfectly consistent with memes contained in the code, though I'm not sure I see where CapGun is arguing against that premise. Where I think CapGun might be going a bit into the realm of conjecture is assuming that any aggression was displayed by George Zimmerman that night. I mean that in a legal, statutory sense of the word, not whether or not some of us might consider it "aggressive" for him to have gotten out of his vehicle. The only evidence about what happened to start the fight is Martin's female friend who is still destroying his case on the stand as I type this, who said that the last thing she heard before she perceived the fight starting was Zimmerman saying, "What are you doing around here?" or something to that effect. She also said that Martin was the first one to speak between them, when he said, "What are you following me for?" or something to that effect. There is zero evidence to show, or even logically suggest, who threw the first blow, who advanced towards whom or what happened after the connection was lost within seconds of her perception that the fight was on.

    And by the way, in case anyone has forgotten (or never knew), the only eye-witness to any part of the fight will come during the defense's case, and unless he's had a 180 change-of-heart from what he said here, Zimmerman was being "beaten up" by Martin, who he clearly puts on top.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SZRdGIjt_o
    Thank you for taking the time to do all this typing. You shed light on what I am trying to get at. I will have to be more direct. Please read my upcoming response to ffChen
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  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    Were any of the ancestors of those offended white people ever owned by a black person?
    I never owned a slave. Wouldn't even if it was legal. Never cracked a whip. I don't know anyone who ever owned a slave. Don't know of anyone who ever was a slave. Don't know anyone who knows another person who ever was a slave. I never did anything racist to anyone. In fact I went to a high school that was 38% black and had black friends. I'm an equal-opportunity discriminator.
    .
    So someone please tell me what the hell am I paying for? Why am I a cracker?
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  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    In case you missed it.

    if you don't know what action or situation justifies the use of your firearm (aka deadly force aka punching someone in the head), I advise you to get some more training.
    Firefighterchen >>> Nei Ho Ma ! We can all use more training when it comes to firearms! Your smug remark leads me to tell you to work on your reading comprehension skills!!!
    Please quote me where I asked at all or ever on this thread what action justifies the use of deadly force! As you read this read it like I am talking slow, easier to understand.
    This whole trial (this is and was my whole point) clouded by all the talk of neighborhood watch protocol, did George disobey orders? Did he follow him? To me all moot points. We can get to the crux much faster dealing with MY QUESTION! In this case; George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin or any other two individuals in any other scenario you want to conjure up...... Hope this is simple enough for you.
    Two people standing there arm distance apart ..... If you use the name GZ or TM you are bringing in unnecessary and confusing info to answer the question at hand. If you have to do that just delete your response BECAUSE YOU STILL DON'T GET IT! Here goes. Two people arms length apart or any distance for that matter....at what point or what circumstance is it justifiable for one person (to be clear there is no physical confrontation or physical attack by either side at this point!) At what point or what circumstance is it justifiable to punch someone out???
    See, absolutely no mention of deadly force. No mention of "disparity of force". Just as before. If anyone responds with anything mentioning those subjects or even the Martin Zimmerman case I think that again you are missing this simple question! BC1, Blues, help. HELP! I am drowning in a vortex of fantasy hoping to get this question answered without peripheral BS

    Just a simple Gui Lo or "Creepy Ass Cracker"!
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  8. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapGun View Post
    Two people arms length apart or any distance for that matter....at what point or what circumstance is it justifiable for one person (to be clear there is no physical confrontation or physical attack by either side at this point!) At what point or what circumstance is it justifiable to punch someone out???
    See, absolutely no mention of deadly force. No mention of "disparity of force". Just as before. If anyone responds with anything mentioning those subjects or even the Martin Zimmerman case I think that again you are missing this simple question! BC1, Blues, help. HELP!
    Lot's of factors come into play. No two situations will ever be exactly the same which is precisely why "what if" scenarios on these forums are ridiculous.
    .
    I agree, remove the names TM and GZ; remove the race issue and focus on the actual confrontation. The person who throws the first punch is not always the initial aggressor. There is legality to a pre-emptive strike when the other party has communicated intent to commit an imminent act, grave threat is present, the party is squaring up and has the means and ability to act. One need not wait for the actual punch in every case. Additionally, an attack that involves an assault of such depravity that significant injury will occur permits the use of deadly force in nearly every state. If TM was on top of GZ punching him one must consider this is not the ordinary punch. We've all been punched at some time in our life. Your head moves, absorbing some of the kinetic energy of the blow. But when your head is on the ground a greater degree of kinetic energy is absorbed by the victims head. Greater injury very possibly occurs. What seems like and average smack can be deadly when one's head is on the ground. Quite similar, damage-wise, as striking someone in the head with a chunk of concrete instead of a fist.
    .
    This is a very unfortunate set of circumstances that lead to death. Perhaps this is nothing more than one person with a dedicated sense of community service meeting with someone who, as a young male, is flexing his blooming manhood and bravado. Sometimes two people meet at the wrong time in their lives.
    .
    My advice is always the same. First, unless it is unavoidable, get the hell out of there before the conflict starts. Second, never be pro-active unless you're choosing to defend someone who, without your help, is going down hard. Community policing works. Just don't let it cause the ruination of your life. Although I generally advocate not being a sheepdog I WOULD NOT sit-by and listen to someone screaming like that for help without intervening. I'm ashamed of the number of people who heard this altercation and who have a weapon and who chose to stay in their home.
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  9. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapGun View Post
    Here goes. Two people arms length apart or any distance for that matter....at what point or what circumstance is it justifiable for one person (to be clear there is no physical confrontation or physical attack by either side at this point!) At what point or what circumstance is it justifiable to punch someone out???
    With no other information than that two people are standing at arms' length from each other, the answer is "NEVER."

    I have no idea what that has to do with anything though. If anyone has misunderstood the limits on your question as being only in relation to two people standing at arms' length with no other information to go on when a fight suddenly erupts, it's probably because this thread is about the Martin/Zimmerman case and there are quite a few facts that we all know about it, none of which include the two of them just standing there and spontaneously erupting into hand-to-hand combat. We're not talking about a limited-information hypothetical, we're discussing real events first, and a trial that is going on because of those events second. The trial of George Zimmerman-_shrug__or__dunno__by_crula.gif

    Back on-topic, O'Mara is wrapping up his re-cross of Mr. Goode (I think is his name) right now. After listening to his entire testimony, I have to wonder why on Earth he was called as a prosecution witness.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  10. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Back on-topic, O'Mara is wrapping up his re-cross of Mr. Goode (I think is his name) right now. After listening to his entire testimony, I have to wonder why on Earth he was called as a prosecution witness.

    Blues
    I agree - if the prosecution had not called him I would think the defense would have - he seemed to confirm Zimmerman's claim, and he directly contradicted the other two prosecution witnesses who put Zimmerman on top.

    Seems like the headway made by the prosecution yesterday has been dissipated by this witness.

  11. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    With no other information than that two people are standing at arms' length from each other, the answer is "NEVER."

    I have no idea what that has to do with anything though. If anyone has misunderstood the limits on your question as being only in relation to two people standing at arms' length with no other information to go on when a fight suddenly erupts, it's probably because this thread is about the Martin/Zimmerman case and there are quite a few facts that we all know about it, none of which include the two of them just standing there and spontaneously erupting into hand-to-hand combat. We're not talking about a limited-information hypothetical, we're discussing real events first, and a trial that is going on because of those events second. The trial of George Zimmerman-_shrug__or__dunno__by_crula.gif

    Back on-topic, O'Mara is wrapping up his re-cross of Mr. Goode (I think is his name) right now. After listening to his entire testimony, I have to wonder why on Earth he was called as a prosecution witness.

    Blues
    OK Back to this case only. In one scenario or guess this went from no physical involvement to deadly physical confrontation. In my scenario of any twp people the answer is never. Obviously this trial is about the "incremental-ism" that led to the bad result.
    Just have to wait for final arguments to see how the defense and the prosecution ties up their theory. So far no hard core eyewitness that can deliver testimony on this fact without reasonable doubt.
    For me the testimony of GZ on his back with his injuries says a lot without further eyewitness to seeing him as the aggressor.
    Many pundits have said that Zimmerman scared the wits out of the "young kid" Martin.
    Then as in a post about John Wayne he was courageous in that he overcame his fears and confronted Zimmerman. What? Zimmerman after calling the police, ran after him, tackled him to the ground and decided to cold bloodily shoot him. Pick your own hypothesis I guess but two things I think about are. 1) Of course if GZ stayed put...and I am not saying he did anything wrong but there probably would have been a different outcome. 2) If TM was actually a scared kid or not so "courageous", at 5'11" 160 and 17 he could have easily outrun the 29yr old, "soft" GZ all the way back to his father. I think that would have produced different results also. It's not about "duty to retreat" so please don't bring it up. Just good 'ol human nature. I wonder if anyone at the trial will bring up the point that TM had that option. I think it says a lot about his temperament. I am sure there are those that will say that a black kid should never run from a "crazy ass cracker". In this case it's not about ego or race, just common sense survival as it turns out.
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