The trial of George Zimmerman - Page 27
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Thread: The trial of George Zimmerman

  1. Pursue innocent people that are walking in our neighborhood when there's no threat. You have to ask, ” What is the intent of GZ action?” He called the police, they said they'd handle it. In chl/ccw class we are taught to not engage unless your life or someone elses is threatened. There's was no threat. So what was GZ intent?

    I don't want some vigilantly taking the law into their own hands. GZ did fine until he stopped listening to the 911 dispatcher when told not to pursue. I honestly would be shocked if he doesn't serve prison time.

    Remember OJ Simpson? What a circus side show. The show clouded the truth.
    Simply look at motive & intent.

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  3. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrXtramean View Post
    Pursue innocent people that are walking in our neighborhood when there's no threat. You have to ask, ” What is the intent of GZ action?” He called the police, they said they'd handle it. In chl/ccw class we are taught to not engage unless your life or someone elses is threatened. There's was no threat. So what was GZ intent?

    I don't want some vigilantly taking the law into their own hands. GZ did fine until he stopped listening to the 911 dispatcher when told not to pursue. I honestly would be shocked if he doesn't serve prison time.

    Remember OJ Simpson? What a circus side show. The show clouded the truth.
    Simply look at motive & intent.
    One problem with your post... GZ didn't "engage" Martin. It was the other way around.


    I used to be a government-educated stooge. By the grace of God, I repent. -Robert Burris

  4. #263
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    Oh Boy! Another newb who hasn't researched a single available fact beyond what MSLSD, HuffPo, Nancy Grace, Piers Morgan, CNN, the LA and NY Times and Al "Tawanna Brawley" Sharpton has spoon fed him.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrXtramean View Post
    Pursue innocent people that are walking in our neighborhood when there's no threat.
    This is the only point that you make about the Zimmerman/Martin case that has a fair amount of validity to it. But....

    Quote Originally Posted by MrXtramean View Post
    You have to ask, ” What is the intent of GZ action?” He called the police, they said they'd handle it.
    You don't have to ask what his intent was before he and Trayvon actually met up. From that point on, the three or four minutes previous are irrelevant to what's being decided in the trial. The jury will be charged with determining what his intent was at the point he pulled the trigger. His answer is self defense. The state's answer is 2nd degree murder. Two very important points here though. The state itself is who put the evidence of self defense on the record, thus doubling their own burden of proof. In FL, self defense is an affirmative defense, meaning that as long as there is prima facie evidence of the shooter suffering great bodily harm or death if he doesn't escalate the level of force in response, the state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense. It is assumed that he (Zimmerman) had a reasonable belief that his life was in danger, and unless the state proves otherwise, he walks before the jury even gets to murder 2.

    So let's fantasize that there is a scintilla of evidence that would disprove Z's claim of self defense, the jury decides it's not, and they move on to murder 2. Then the state has to prove to them beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman's actions demonstrated ill will and a depraved mind without regard for human life. Taking a beating for at least 45 seconds before drawing and firing his weapon hardly approaches that threshold of the law.

    But it literally doesn't matter, as long as the jury follows the law, because if they do, there is no evidence to hang their hats on that the burden of proof that it wasn't self defense has been met by the state. Game over. The following, the referring to Trayvon as an a-hole or f'ing punk on the non-emergency call he made doesn't speak at all to whether or not he had a reasonable belief at the time he pulled the trigger that his life was in danger, but his injuries and consistent recounting of how he got them speaks volumes to that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrXtramean View Post
    In chl/ccw class we are taught to not engage unless your life or someone elses is threatened. There's was no threat. So what was GZ intent?
    I think it's safe to say that as Trayvon was bouncing his head off the concrete trying to crack it open like an eggshell, that Zimmerman's intent was to save his own life. Unless the jury thinks that Zimmerman quickly gave himself those injuries before the neighbors started coming out with flashlights and the cops got there just a few seconds later, all because he's such an evil genius that he anticipated that he'd need injuries to sustain a claim of self defense, I think proving beyond a reasonable doubt that self defense is not an available defense in this trial has already been blown completely out of the water. And the ironic thing is, it was the prosecution that brought much of that evidence out.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrXtramean View Post
    I don't want some vigilantly taking the law into their own hands. GZ did fine until he stopped listening to the 911 dispatcher when told not to pursue.
    And the evidence that's on the record that he did, indeed, pursue Martin is what again? Between the time that Z lost sight of M, when he said, "Sh!t, he's running" and finished the call with the dispatcher, more than two full minutes had passed when Martin could have been walking straight down the same sidewalk where the altercation took place to where he and his father were staying that night. Instead, he stayed in the area, or came back to it as the case may be, and even the friend-girl on the phone with Trayvon says that he made the first verbal contact with Zimmerman, saying, "What are you following me for?" That was seconds after Z had hung up with dispatch, and more than two minutes after losing sight of Martin. The circumstantial evidence is much more weighted towards the premise that Martin laid in wait for Zimmerman as he was returning to his truck.

    And hey, don't take my word for it, listen and time it for yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrXtramean View Post
    I honestly would be shocked if he doesn't serve prison time.
    And I honestly would have been shocked if you hadn't said that, considering how ill-informed you are about the available facts and circumstantial evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrXtramean View Post
    Remember OJ Simpson?
    Yes, very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrXtramean View Post
    What a circus side show. The show clouded the truth.
    Not really. For one thing, the two cases aren't comparable at all. OJ had no claim at all of self defense, valid or not. Zimmerman never was a beloved celebrity, and of course now, never will be.

    Aside from that though, there is a similarity between the two cases. Both reveal(ed) the incompetence of the respective prosecutor's offices. In this case, the prosecutors introduced the evidence that made it a self defense case after getting a freebie from the defense by their declining to force a "Stand Your Ground" hearing. In OJ's case, the prosecution fought tooth and nail to force Simpson to put the bloody gloves on, and guess what? They didn't fit! Not even close! Take the rubber gloves off, and they still wouldn't have even been close. BOOM! The prosecutors introduced reasonable doubt in just that one bungled demonstration, but there were lots of other problems that they brought upon themselves.

    Other than that, there is no relationship to the facts of the two cases. It's really a poor juxtaposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrXtramean View Post
    Simply look at motive & intent.
    Indeed. You might try to take your own advice in that regard before posting again on the subject.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Oh Boy! Another newb who hasn't researched a single available fact beyond what MSLSD, HuffPo, Nancy Grace, Piers Morgan, CNN, the LA and NY Times and Al "Tawanna Brawley" Sharpton has spoon fed him.

    Blues
    Coincidentally, I know Nancy Grace. And while she's a very nice person in real life she's brutal on her show. One night she was going-on about why GZ was carrying a gun to begin with. I wanted to say something but thought it would be hurtful. But if her fiancι was carrying a gun the night he was murdered he might be alive today. That's just a simple fact. The incident hurt her so badly that she decided to become an attorney and prosecutor.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  6. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrXtramean View Post
    Pursue innocent people that are walking in our neighborhood when there's no threat. You have to ask, ” What is the intent of GZ action?” He called the police, they said they'd handle it. In chl/ccw class we are taught to not engage unless your life or someone elses is threatened. There's was no threat. So what was GZ intent?

    I don't want some vigilantly taking the law into their own hands. GZ did fine until he stopped listening to the 911 dispatcher when told not to pursue. I honestly would be shocked if he doesn't serve prison time.

    Remember OJ Simpson? What a circus side show. The show clouded the truth.
    Simply look at motive & intent.
    Just one point here. GZ was part of a "neighborhood watch" this gives him a reason to watch and observe TM or anyone else in his neighborhood.

    Posted this before seeing Blues most insightful answer.
    Last edited by gejoslin; 07-09-2013 at 10:35 AM. Reason: update. Blues post
    ~Responsible people who understand that their personal protection is up to them, provide themselves with protection. Those that don't have only themselves to blame.~Proud NRA ~SAF~GoA Member~

  7. Quote Originally Posted by SR40c View Post
    One problem with your post... GZ didn't "engage" Martin. It was the other way around.
    At the point GZ hung up the phone & was told not to pursue, TM had already moved away. GZ pursued. As far as who struck who first is not a fact we can prove. We can only look at phone conversations & at witnesses. That is all. Past history can play into swaying judgment, but and again, motive &intent in the heat of the moment.

  8. #267
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    Zimmerman required no stitches or hospitalization. If, as many on here claim, his head was getting slammed repeatedly into the ground, wouldn't Zimmerman have lost consciousness or at least required some kind of medical attention? He required NONE! The injuries shown on Zimmerman's head are more likely the result of his head scraping the ground, but hardly anything life threatening.

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  9. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    Zimmerman required no stitches or hospitalization. If, as many on here claim, his head was getting slammed repeatedly into the ground, wouldn't Zimmerman have lost consciousness or at least required some kind of medical attention? He required NONE! The injuries shown on Zimmerman's head are more likely the result of his head scraping the ground, but hardly anything life threatening.
    The standard the jury must go by has nothing to do with whether or not Z's injuries turned out to be life threatening after the fact, it's about whether he had a reasonable belief at the time he pulled the trigger that subsequent blows would produce deadly injuries, or great bodily harm. That's it, man. It's not about name-calling. It's not even about who threw the first blow. It's about Zimmerman's reasonable belief at the point that he pulled the trigger. The law is so clear on this point that it's baffling to me how few even consider it in forming their view of the legal case. What you think in general about who did what, who said what, when they did it and how they said it is certainly up to each individual to determine for themselves, but the legal case must be based upon the laws surrounding use of deadly force, period. On that basis, if the judge handles her obligation to give the proper instructions on the law, and if the jury follows those proper instructions, Zimmerman walks.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  10. #269
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    You're right, but just because Zimmerman says he believed his life was in danger doesn't mean that it was, or that the jurors will believe it. If I were a juror, I'd have an easier time believing that if he sustained any injuries that required hospitalization.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

    Benjamin Franklin

  11. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stengun View Post
    Howdy Blues,



    I just find it hard to believe, but totally possible, that a intelligent grown man would not know the names of a street that you can see from his house that he has lived in for over 12 years. It just doesn't add up.

    Martin still in pain and suffering before he died after being shot. What's so had to believe or understand about that?

    Based on the amount of blood that bled out of the GSW it is fairly easy for a trained ME to tell how long a person, or animal, lived after being shot.

    the principles in a nationally-known, highly-publicized case: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin maybe?

    Paul
    I used to go get into fights with kids for 5 years from Monsignor Farrell HS at a train station in Richmond Staten Island but I can't tell you what it's called or what street it's on. It's by a cemetary. How's that for a description?? I used to tag along with my uncle in his cab and can't tell you many street names in Manhattan either. I just know what they look like and where they go.

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