Deadly force justified to prevent restraint only? - Page 2
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Thread: Deadly force justified to prevent restraint only?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    or he was suffering from PTSD and it would be a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act to fire him, so they will offer a medical/disability retirement.
    I didn't think about that one.
    Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress;
    but I repeat myself.
    Mark Twain

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  3. #12
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    Should a cop who has been drinking have their powers of arrest, etc. taken from them until they sober up?

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Cell phone video shows off-duty deputy attempt to arrest soldier - FOX Carolina 21

    Neglecting all the argument about alcohol and guns and assuming (like in Washington), this woman would have been perfectly legal to possess a firearm (I know South Carolina is different) as long as she wasn't in the >21 years old restricted area (Washington law). At what point would she have been justified in shooting the perpetrator?
    My view is that that point is not depicted in the video because (I think) she's already handcuffed by the time the recording starts. If not handcuffed, she's already being restrained and otherwise manhandled by the pig (not a pig just because he's a cop, but because he's a pig of a human being). That said, given the means and opportunity, I think Ball was justified in escalating from loud refusals to shoving him away then to deadly force very quickly, but that evaluation is based only on what I can see, which the whole time she is restrained by him and/or handcuffs, so whether or not my evaluation is correct, it's moot. She had no opportunity during the entire video that I saw.

    I think a more plausible question would be at what point did any of the bystanders have the legal right to threaten and/or use deadly force against Derrick? The article doesn't say anything about him ever actually identifying himself as a LEO, though some of the bystanders can be heard in the background saying he's an out of control cop etc., so I guess we can infer from that that he did identify himself at some time prior to the recording being started. Whatever, the fact that Derrick was arrested and charged with assault and battery on Ball is proof enough that anyone nearby willing and able to intervene on Ball's behalf would have been justified in the use of some level of force, even if not going all the way to deadly force. Of course, if such a thing were captured on video as well, it would have likely changed how the Columbia DA and PD prosecuted the case. They likely would've let Derrick go and prosecuted whoever intervened on Ball's behalf. Sort of a "post facto" justification for the assault and battery. Maybe not, but hopefully Ball is alright and will recover fully from the indignity the pig put her through, so it's probably just as well that no one did intervene.

    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyGene View Post
    Should a cop who has been drinking have their powers of arrest, etc. taken from them until they sober up?
    In this case, they were taken from Derrick permanently, at least permanently from the Sheriff's department he was working for when it happened. That's not to say that some other agency elsewhere won't pick him up as their perfect model for a cop. And if that doesn't work out, he'll find a job as a bouncer or a bodyguard or some other job where he can get his rocks off by getting in fights and brutalizing innocent people.

    As to the general powers of arrest though, that question was addressed at least partially in that link. From the link:

    The video, showing Derrick shouting at Ball as he yanked and twisted the handcuff chains, sparked outrage from many who saw it.

    It also played a role in a decision by Columbia police arriving at the scene to order Ball released while they took Derrick into custody, charging him with assault and battery.

    Last week, Lott disagreed with the police action, saying Derrick had authority to make an arrest and suggesting Ball may have been resisting.

    But a state attorney general's opinion does not appear to support the sheriff.

    In 2009, that office cited a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that determined a Class 3 officer like Derrick is limited in his law enforcement authority, and "without statutory authority to detain a suspect until another officer arrives..."
    That sounds inconsistent with what we hear all the time about a "cop is always on duty," but that's the SC AG's opinion which flows from a SCOTUS ruling, so at least in SC, I'd say that's currently the state of the law.

    And one last thing....

    In the 10+ minute video there's a segment starting about 2:35 or so where it looks to me like Derrick is coppin' a feel of part of Ball's right breast. He doesn't completely cover it with his hand, but watch closely and you can see his fingers kind of "squeezing" and moving around the side of her breast when he's in this position:



    You decide, but I think there could be a case made that some of that was a sexual assault as well.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  5. How ever this ends up I think she is going to become a very wealthy lady
    We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee, we don't take our trips on LSD. We don't burn our draft cards Down on Main Street. 'Cause we like livin' right and being free.

  6. #15
    Step 1 in a robbery, rape, kidnapping, murder by strangulation, etc. is restraint. Once restrained, then the rest becomes easier.
    “Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
    But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ― Steven Weinberg

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40scinNC View Post
    Step 1 in a robbery, rape, kidnapping, murder by strangulation, etc. is restraint. Once restrained, then the rest becomes easier.
    Which, if a CC bystander reasonably concluded was what was happening, would make him/her justified in stopping the creep from continuing, right?
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  8. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Which, if a CC bystander reasonably concluded was what was happening, would make him/her justified in stopping the creep from continuing, right?
    And is a damn good shot. Not at the range with stationary paper targets, but real world under major stress.
    “Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
    But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ― Steven Weinberg

  9. #18
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    Cop could have been dead rather than being sued.

  10. #19
    What I'm wondering is, if someone had intervened or she had defended herself, who would have gotten arrested? If it hadn't been recorded, who would the responding officers have believed?

    How the heck do we defend ourselves against bad cops without getting large amounts of jail time? Thank goodness most of them are good...
    Modern Whig
    "Government is not meant to burden Liberty but rather to secure it." -T.J. O'Hara

  11. I threw this one around at work and the GC is that the cop’s behavior was so far over the line as to create a reasonable doubt that he actually was a police officer. So your defense would be you believed he was impersonating and defended yourself.

    There was also consensus that under no circumstance is he taking me out of that bar I will sit there in handcuffs until uniformed on duty officers arrive regardless of the cost.
    We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee, we don't take our trips on LSD. We don't burn our draft cards Down on Main Street. 'Cause we like livin' right and being free.

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